Post by Rob Caprio on Sept 28, 2021 10:53:11 GMT -5
All portions are ©️ Robert Caprio 2006-2024
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The Warren Commission (WC) said Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) traveled to Mexico City, Mexico, in late September 1963 and visited both the Cuban Consulate and the Russian Embassy in an effort to try and get a visa to Cuba. Let’s look at this supposed trip in a more detailed manner in this post. I have done posts on each part of the supposed trip in the past, but let’s take an overview look in this post.
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The WC said LHO left for Laredo, Texas, from Houston on the morning of September 26 at 2:35 a.m. on Continental Trailways bus #5133. This particular bus had a stop over at Corpus Christi before it arrived in Laredo at 1:20 p.m. The problem with this claim is that the FBI could find no support for it. When the FBI interviewed employees of the Laredo Trailways depot to see if they could remember selling LHO a ticket to Mexico City they met with negative results. Both drivers of bus #5133, Claude A. Piatt and R. H. Thomas, did NOT remember LHO being on the bus to Nuevo Laredo and again met negative results. (FBI Airtel from SAC San Antonio to FBI Director, 12/6/63; FBI Airtel from SAC Dallas to SAC New Orleans and SAC Houston, 12/10/63.)
In fact when the FBI searched numerous locations of Continental Trailways and Greyhound in such cities as New Orleans, Lake Charles, Beaumont, Houston, Corpus Christi, San Antonio and Laredo they again met with negative results in terms of LHO being sold a ticket from Laredo, Texas, to Mexico City, Mexico. So where did LHO purchase this alleged ticket then?
The New York Post reported on November 25, 1963, that William Kline, Chief of Customs at Laredo, had said that LHO’s movements had been watched at the request of a “federal agency in Washington.” (Eric Norden, "The Death of a President," The Minority of One, January 1964, p. 18.) What agency would this be? And why would they be so interested in LHO’s travel?
The Herald Tribue interviewed Eugene Pugh who was in charge of the U.S. Customs office in Laredo, Texas, about LHO and he said LHO was checked by American Immigration upon entering and leaving Mexico. Pugh was quoted as saying, “This was not the usual procedure, but US Immigration (INS) had a folder on Oswald's trip.” (Herald Tribune, 11/26/63, p. 8.) Why would INS have a folder on LHO’s alleged trip? What was the purpose of this? Could it be tied to the passport issue? If so, why was LHO given a passport within 24 hours in New Orleans then?
It should be noted neither Kline nor Pugh ever denied the statements attributed to them in these articles in a public way. The WC did NOT bother to call them or get statements from them either, but did have them do an affidavit in which they could claim NOT to remember saying those things to the press. Here is Pugh’s affidavit in which he did NOT repeat what he told the reporter from the Herald Tribune.
Eugene Pugh Affidavit: jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/pugh.htm
And here is William Kline’s affidavit in which he also denies saying what was attributed to him by the New York Post.
William Kline Affidavit: jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/kline_w.htm
Why the WC did NOT debunk the rumors and speculations that came from these comments in Appendix XII of their Report is anyone’s guess, but they left us with nothing but these two affidavits that refute the claims attributed to them. The people that wrote those claims in the paper were NOT sought out by the WC to see what their side of the story was. I wonder why? Sadly, we still don’t know more about these comments fifty years on and that is a shame as they showed that “an agency in Washington” was keeping a close eye on LHO months before the assassination of JFK. Perhaps we got a glimpse of who during Professor Revilo Pendleton Oliver’s testimony.
Mr. JENNER. The report of your Santa Ana Valley High School speech on the evening of August 28, 1964, at least as reported in the Washington Post, on page 19, the issue dated August 30, 1964, purports to quote you as having said, "I don't know whether Oswald was paid by the CIA or by the Soviet secret police and it is just a matter of bookkeeping anyway." Did you make that statement in the course of your speech to the Santa Ana Valley High School audience?
Mr. OLIVER. Not in that form, and not in all probability in the context in which I am quoted there. In the speech I referred to a book which I believe is on your desk written by a Mr. Joesten, Joachim Joesten; entitled "Oswald: Assassin or Fall Guy?" in which, in the course of many arguments intended to prove or suggest that Oswald was "framed" by wicked American conservatives, he makes much of Oswald's supposed connection with the CIA. In my speech I made the point that if it were established that Oswald was in the employ of the CIA that would not by any means exclude the possibility that he was also in the employ of the Soviet and that therefore the argument in the book is completely fallacious. I think I can tell you precisely what I did say.
Mr. JENNER. As I recall, I am not attempting to quote this, all I did was make a cryptic note. somewhere, in what you have just read the substance is "But I hear that he was" that is, that he was paid by the CIA. Would you find that spot in your quote.
Mr. OLIVER. The exact quotation is, "I do not know whether Oswald was paid by the CIA but I hear there was testimony before the Warren Commission that he was."
Mr. JENNER. And from what source, on what source did you base the statement that you heard that there was testimony before the Warren Commission that he was?
Mr. OLIVER. Principally, although not exclusively, an article, again by Henshaw in the National Enquirer at about the time that Earl Warren made his statement that the findings would not be released during the lifetime of the people then living.
Mr. JENNER. If you will pardon my correcting you even that newspaper account didn't say that the Chief Justice said that the findings of the Commission would not be released.
Mr. OLIVER. That the "full truth"wasn't that it?
Mr. JENNER. I think not. It will be quoted in the report. This occurred a long time ago, and I have forgotten just what it was.
For those keeping track at home the WC NEVER quoted this comment by the Chief Justice in the Report. Why NOT?
We have looked at the FM-8 card issue before that was issued to “Lee, Harvey Oswald” (card number 24085) and this was good for 15 days. What is not discussed much is the fact LHO was supposedly also issued a FM-5 card that was good for 180 days. Mexican Immigration Inspector Helio Tuexi Maydon said he took the carbon copy from LHO and left the original with him as he would surrender this when he left the country later on. The problem here for the WC was that Maydon’s supervisor said this about his employee’s recollection of the man he thought was LHO.
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Maydon's supervisor, Raul Luebano, advised, "Our inspector said that his best recollection was that Oswald was traveling with two women and a man in an automobile. Oswald was dressed in a sailor's uniform and said he was a photographer." (FBI memo titled "Lee Harvey Oswald," March 19, 1964; Marshall Peck and Martin J. Steadman, Herald Tribune, 11/26/63.)
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So LHO was in an automobile and NOT a bus according to Maydon’s recollection. Why would LHO be dressed in a sailor’s uniform? As discussed before, he also gave his occupation as “photographer” and I have never known of a time when LHO was really in the profession of photography. Supposedly the couple was Bill Steve Allen and Elaine Esterman Allen from Miami, Florida, as the FBI said in Commission Document (CD) 6, but for some reason their FM-8 cards had different names on them. On those cards they were Stephen Alan Brill and Elaine Esterman Brill.
CD 6, p.319: www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10407&relPageId=318
Commission Exhibit (CE) 2119, pp. 12-13:
www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0286b.htm
Why the difference in the last names? That was never explained for us by the FBI so we will have to think of a reason ourselves. Also, the FM-8 card LHO supposedly used lacked any stamp, typed or handwritten notes that are required. Why is that? We have seen in other posts how the departure bus manifest was taken and did NOT show the name of LHO on it anyway.
The supposed arrival bus manifest dated March 16, 1964, did however as we see in CE 2121 we see a list of people who entered Mexico on September 26, 1963, and there is a “Harvey, Oswald Lee” on it.
CE 2121, p. 23: www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pages/WH_Vol24_0298a.gif
As I have asked before, why did LHO not have the name fixed on his FM-8 card? “Harvey, Oswald Lee” equates with Oswald Lee Harvey and NOT Lee Harvey Oswald, so why would he enter a foreign country with a misspelling like that on his FM-8 card IF we chose to believe the official claim?
LHO himself would deny ever going to Mexico City during his interrogations by the Dallas Police Department (DPD) and FBI. In the WC’s own Report (WCR) they quoted Captain Will Fritz’s report of the interrogations, and this can be read on page 3.
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Mr. Hosty also asked Oswald if he had been to Mexico City, which he denied. (WCR, p. 601; Captain Will Fritz Report, p. 3)
www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0313a.htm
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This is corroborated and confirmed in a joint report by FBI Agents James Hosty and James Bookhout.
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Oswald stated that he had never been in Mexico except to Tijuana on one occasion. (WCR, p. 612)
www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0318b.htm
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If we look at the testimony of FBI Agent James Hosty we have to ask, why did he let this statement by LHO go unchallenged in front of Will Fritz? He said this about Mexico in his WC testimony.
Mr. STERN. What next happened in your effort to locate him?
Mr. HOSTY. I then received a communication on the 25th of October from the New Orleans office advising me that another agency had determined that Lee Oswald was in contact with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City in the early part of October 1963.
According to this testimony by Hosty he knew by October 25, 1963, that LHO had supposedly been in Mexico City making contact with the Soviet Embassy, but when LHO stated he had never been in Mexico beyond one time to Tijuana he never said anything. Could this be because he knew the person who was in Mexico City was NOT LHO? Here again he confirms when he learned of the presence of someone named Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City.
Mr. STERN. And at what time did you know of Oswald's trip to Mexico City and his apparent appearance there at the Russian Embassy?
Mr. HOSTY. The 25th of October.
He would also admit to NOT telling Fritz what he knew about LHO’s alleged visit to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City.
Mr. McCLOY. I didn't hear you repeating your testimony that he denied ever having been in Mexico.
Mr. HOSTY. Oh, yes; he was being questioned about his activities outside or the United States, where he had been outside of the United States. He told Captain Fritz that he had only been to Mexico to visit at Tijuana on the border, and then he did admit having been in Russia.
Mr. McCLOY. He only admitted to having been at Tijuana in Mexico?
Mr. HOSTY. Right.
Mr. McCLOY. Not to Mexico City.
Mr. HOSTY. Not to Mexico City; that is right.
Mr. STERN. Did you tell Captain Fritz at this time any of the information you had about Oswald, about his trip to Mexico, for example?
Mr. HOSTY. No.
Mr. STERN. About his being in touch with the Russian authorities seeking a visa?
Mr. HOSTY. No.
As we have seen before, Hosty was NOT shy about labeling LHO a Communist and pointing blame his way, so why did he keep mum about this supposed visit to Captain Fritz then? What would be gained by not sharing this information? To me, the only reason was he knew it was NOT LHO as we would find out later on when FBI analysis of the tape and image showed it was NOT LHO.
Hosty’s excuse would be that LHO admitted to everything, but we don’t see any admission to his trip to Mexico City in the written reports. So this claim by him does NOT hold up here as a reason for why he did NOT inform Fritz about LHO’s alleged visit to Mexico City IF it was LHO as claimed that was there.
As usual in this case however, we have others who claim he did admit to going to Mexico. Dallas FBI Informant T-7 (Postal Inspector Harry Holmes) said this during his testimony regarding what he heard in LHO’s last interrogation on Sunday morning, November 24, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else about Russia? Did he ever say anything about going to Mexico? Was that ever covered?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes. …he went to the Mexican Embassy to try to get this permission to go to Russia by Cuba, but most of the talks that he wanted to talk about was how he got by with a little amount.
Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that he went to Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what community in Mexico he went to?
Mr. HOLMES. Mexico City.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what he did while he was there?
Mr. HOLMES. He went to the Mexican consulate, I guess.
Mr. BELIN. Is this something that you think you might have picked up from just reading the papers, or is this something you remember hearing?
Mr. HOLMES. That is what he said in there.
So Holmes’ testimony is totally at odds with what Captain Fritz, FBI Agent Hosty and FBI Agent Bookhout said in their reports. Detective L.C. Graves would tell the WC that LHO admitted to going to Mexico as well in his testimony.
Mr. BELIN. That is something I don't want to get into. What about the interrogation? Do you remember any subjects that were covered?
Mr. GRAVES. Well, I couldn't think of Mr. Kelley's name, the last time, but he questioned Oswald along the line of his activity in Mexico and in Russia.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not Oswald admitted that he was in Mexico?
Mr. GRAVES. I believe he did admit it.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he said about his activities in Mexico?
Mr. GRAVES. I am too vague on that to make any statement on what he said.
The see-saw continued when three months after Holmes and Graves testified we see the WC requested affidavits from Secret Service (SS) Inspector Thomas Kelley and SS Agent Forrest Sorrels on this issue. Here is what both of them said.
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3. It is my recollection that during this interrogation [November 24, 1963] Oswald was NOT asked about nor did he speak of a trip to Mexico or plans that he had to go to Cuba. (Thomas Kelley Affidavit, July 30, 1964) (Emphasis added)
www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/html/WC_Vol7_0299b.htm
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And:
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3. I do not recall that during this interrogation [November 24, 1963] Oswald being questioned about or him making statements about a trip that he took to Mexico or plans that he had to go to Cuba. (Forrest Sorrels Affidavit, August 6, 1964)
www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/html/WC_Vol7_0300b.htm
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These two affidavits were called for to help push Hosty’s testimony and Holmes and Graves’ recollections over the written reports of Fritz, Bookhout and Hosty in regards to this matter. Clearly, it seems laughable that Kelley and Sorrels would have “no recollection” of this topic being asked about or answered by LHO. It is up to the reader to decide who they want to believe, but keep in mind, going to Mexico City was NOT a crime (and NOTHING would have been done illegal there), so why would he deny this simple trip if he really went?
Of course we could not go on further without bringing in Marina Oswald to this story. She of course would claim LHO went there and that she kept this quiet from everyone including Ruth Paine, but she also would say this to the WC.
Mr. RANKIN. When you were asked before about the trip to Mexico, you did not say that you knew anything about it. Do you want to explain to the Commission how that happened?
Mrs. OSWALD. Most of these questions were put to me by the FBI. I do not like them too much. I didn't want to be too sincere with them. Though I was quite sincere and answered most of their questions. They questioned me a great deal, and I was very tired of them, and I thought that, well, whether I knew about it or didn't know about it didn't change matters at all, it didn't help anything, because the fact that Lee had been there was already known, and whether or not I knew about it didn't make any difference.
She started off by saying she did not want to be too “sincere” with the FBI! How do we take that comment? How was it known that LHO went to Mexico for sure? Especially when she said this in a FBI interview given on November 28, 1963, to Agents Wallace Heitman and Anatole Boguslav.
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Mrs. Oswald advised that upon her departure from New Orleans with Mrs. Paine, it was agreed by her and her husband that Oswald would remain in New Orleans to find work and if he could not find work, he would return to Dallas. Oswald also made the statement that he had a friend in another city and that he might contact this friend to see if he could find work. Mrs.Oswald said she did not think that this was true—she did not believe Oswald had a friend anywhere. She said that it is possible that Mrs. Paine would know who this friend was and what the name of the city was. She said she could not remember.
When asked what the arrangements were at the time she left New Orleans, Mrs. Oswald said that her husband was to remain there in New Orleans or to return to Dallas, but no arrangements were made for him to go to Mexico City. Inasmuch as Mexico City had not been mentioned, she was asked why she had said no arrangements had been made for Oswald to go to Mexico City. She replied that she had been looking at television the past few days and had seen or heard that Oswald had been in Mexico City. She said she was only trying to be helpful and that is the reason she had mentioned Mexico City as she did.
Mrs. Oswald said that she did not know anything about any trip that Oswald may have made to Mexico City. She said that upon Oswald's return to Dallas, which was in early October 1963, she had not asked him where he had been or what he had done because she knew that he had not found work and that it would only embarrass him to ask. She said that Oswald had not volunteered any information about where he had been or what he had done. (CE 1781, pp. 549-550)
www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0210b.htm
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Based on these comments by her on November 28, 1963, how could she feel it was an established fact that LHO went to Mexico City as claimed? Because she willingly volunteered FALSE INFORMATION on her own initiative in order to be “helpful” to the FBI and the authorities. On the very same day we see she did another interview with SS Agent Leon Gopadze and this is what she said in regards to the alleged Mexico City trip.
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She was asked whether she had any knowledge of Lee's trips to. Mexico or Washington, D.C. She replied in the negative. . . . Apparently Marina was very much concerned that Mr. Gregory [present at the interview as interpreter] and I had any doubts as to her sincerity and truthfulness in her answers to our questions. She repeatedly would remark "I hope you believe me, as I swear by God, this is the truth." .. .
After the reporting agent's return to the U.S. Secret Service Office, Dallas, Texas, Marina Oswald had one of the Secret Service agents phone the office and asked for the reporting agent. She apologized for not giving the following information . . . [that] on her departure from New Orleans with Mrs. Paine, Lee told her and Mrs. Paine that he might go to some other cities to look for work, and particularly to a city where one of his friends was living; that the names of both cities were furnished by Lee to Mrs. Paine who no doubt will remember the names and may remember the name of his friend he mentioned. (CE 1792, pp. 6-8)
www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0220b.htm
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If these comments are true this means she provided false information to the FBI to “be helpful” and then gave false information to the SS while “swearing to God” that it was truthful! Clearly we see on November 28, 1963, Marina Oswald had NO inkling LHO went to Mexico City based on her own words, so how did she obtain this knowledge to a point of certainty later on? It should be noted that neither of these comments were made under duress so if she provided false information to both the FBI and SS she did it willingly!
Here Mr. Rankin only shows sympathy for Marina Oswald despite her dishonest actions!
Mr. RANKIN. Was that the only reason that you did not tell about what you knew of the Mexico City trip before?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because the first time that they asked me I said no, I didn't know anything about it. And in all succeeding discussions I couldn't very well have said I did. There is nothing special in that. It wasn't because this was connected with some sort of secret.
There is no in-depth questioning to find out why she withheld this information and certainly no scorn witnesses like Arnold Rowland received when they said things the WC did NOT want to hear. Why NOT? There is no warning from him either about how her testimony differed so much from these earlier statements by her so that future generations reading this would be aware of it. No, it was left to go with NO notations at all.
Her testimony would NOT have been allowed in a court of law and ran counter to official documents, but still she was given free rein to say anything she wanted to say about a dead man’s travels. It is clear through the numerous posts on this topic that there is simply NO evidence showing LHO ever went to Mexico City as claimed by the CIA and WC, however, this does NOT mean someone else didn’t go and acted like they were LHO.
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The Warren Commission (WC) said Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) traveled to Mexico City, Mexico, in late September 1963 and visited both the Cuban Consulate and the Russian Embassy in an effort to try and get a visa to Cuba. Let’s look at this supposed trip in a more detailed manner in this post. I have done posts on each part of the supposed trip in the past, but let’s take an overview look in this post.
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The WC said LHO left for Laredo, Texas, from Houston on the morning of September 26 at 2:35 a.m. on Continental Trailways bus #5133. This particular bus had a stop over at Corpus Christi before it arrived in Laredo at 1:20 p.m. The problem with this claim is that the FBI could find no support for it. When the FBI interviewed employees of the Laredo Trailways depot to see if they could remember selling LHO a ticket to Mexico City they met with negative results. Both drivers of bus #5133, Claude A. Piatt and R. H. Thomas, did NOT remember LHO being on the bus to Nuevo Laredo and again met negative results. (FBI Airtel from SAC San Antonio to FBI Director, 12/6/63; FBI Airtel from SAC Dallas to SAC New Orleans and SAC Houston, 12/10/63.)
In fact when the FBI searched numerous locations of Continental Trailways and Greyhound in such cities as New Orleans, Lake Charles, Beaumont, Houston, Corpus Christi, San Antonio and Laredo they again met with negative results in terms of LHO being sold a ticket from Laredo, Texas, to Mexico City, Mexico. So where did LHO purchase this alleged ticket then?
The New York Post reported on November 25, 1963, that William Kline, Chief of Customs at Laredo, had said that LHO’s movements had been watched at the request of a “federal agency in Washington.” (Eric Norden, "The Death of a President," The Minority of One, January 1964, p. 18.) What agency would this be? And why would they be so interested in LHO’s travel?
The Herald Tribue interviewed Eugene Pugh who was in charge of the U.S. Customs office in Laredo, Texas, about LHO and he said LHO was checked by American Immigration upon entering and leaving Mexico. Pugh was quoted as saying, “This was not the usual procedure, but US Immigration (INS) had a folder on Oswald's trip.” (Herald Tribune, 11/26/63, p. 8.) Why would INS have a folder on LHO’s alleged trip? What was the purpose of this? Could it be tied to the passport issue? If so, why was LHO given a passport within 24 hours in New Orleans then?
It should be noted neither Kline nor Pugh ever denied the statements attributed to them in these articles in a public way. The WC did NOT bother to call them or get statements from them either, but did have them do an affidavit in which they could claim NOT to remember saying those things to the press. Here is Pugh’s affidavit in which he did NOT repeat what he told the reporter from the Herald Tribune.
Eugene Pugh Affidavit: jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/pugh.htm
And here is William Kline’s affidavit in which he also denies saying what was attributed to him by the New York Post.
William Kline Affidavit: jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/kline_w.htm
Why the WC did NOT debunk the rumors and speculations that came from these comments in Appendix XII of their Report is anyone’s guess, but they left us with nothing but these two affidavits that refute the claims attributed to them. The people that wrote those claims in the paper were NOT sought out by the WC to see what their side of the story was. I wonder why? Sadly, we still don’t know more about these comments fifty years on and that is a shame as they showed that “an agency in Washington” was keeping a close eye on LHO months before the assassination of JFK. Perhaps we got a glimpse of who during Professor Revilo Pendleton Oliver’s testimony.
Mr. JENNER. The report of your Santa Ana Valley High School speech on the evening of August 28, 1964, at least as reported in the Washington Post, on page 19, the issue dated August 30, 1964, purports to quote you as having said, "I don't know whether Oswald was paid by the CIA or by the Soviet secret police and it is just a matter of bookkeeping anyway." Did you make that statement in the course of your speech to the Santa Ana Valley High School audience?
Mr. OLIVER. Not in that form, and not in all probability in the context in which I am quoted there. In the speech I referred to a book which I believe is on your desk written by a Mr. Joesten, Joachim Joesten; entitled "Oswald: Assassin or Fall Guy?" in which, in the course of many arguments intended to prove or suggest that Oswald was "framed" by wicked American conservatives, he makes much of Oswald's supposed connection with the CIA. In my speech I made the point that if it were established that Oswald was in the employ of the CIA that would not by any means exclude the possibility that he was also in the employ of the Soviet and that therefore the argument in the book is completely fallacious. I think I can tell you precisely what I did say.
Mr. JENNER. As I recall, I am not attempting to quote this, all I did was make a cryptic note. somewhere, in what you have just read the substance is "But I hear that he was" that is, that he was paid by the CIA. Would you find that spot in your quote.
Mr. OLIVER. The exact quotation is, "I do not know whether Oswald was paid by the CIA but I hear there was testimony before the Warren Commission that he was."
Mr. JENNER. And from what source, on what source did you base the statement that you heard that there was testimony before the Warren Commission that he was?
Mr. OLIVER. Principally, although not exclusively, an article, again by Henshaw in the National Enquirer at about the time that Earl Warren made his statement that the findings would not be released during the lifetime of the people then living.
Mr. JENNER. If you will pardon my correcting you even that newspaper account didn't say that the Chief Justice said that the findings of the Commission would not be released.
Mr. OLIVER. That the "full truth"wasn't that it?
Mr. JENNER. I think not. It will be quoted in the report. This occurred a long time ago, and I have forgotten just what it was.
For those keeping track at home the WC NEVER quoted this comment by the Chief Justice in the Report. Why NOT?
We have looked at the FM-8 card issue before that was issued to “Lee, Harvey Oswald” (card number 24085) and this was good for 15 days. What is not discussed much is the fact LHO was supposedly also issued a FM-5 card that was good for 180 days. Mexican Immigration Inspector Helio Tuexi Maydon said he took the carbon copy from LHO and left the original with him as he would surrender this when he left the country later on. The problem here for the WC was that Maydon’s supervisor said this about his employee’s recollection of the man he thought was LHO.
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Maydon's supervisor, Raul Luebano, advised, "Our inspector said that his best recollection was that Oswald was traveling with two women and a man in an automobile. Oswald was dressed in a sailor's uniform and said he was a photographer." (FBI memo titled "Lee Harvey Oswald," March 19, 1964; Marshall Peck and Martin J. Steadman, Herald Tribune, 11/26/63.)
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So LHO was in an automobile and NOT a bus according to Maydon’s recollection. Why would LHO be dressed in a sailor’s uniform? As discussed before, he also gave his occupation as “photographer” and I have never known of a time when LHO was really in the profession of photography. Supposedly the couple was Bill Steve Allen and Elaine Esterman Allen from Miami, Florida, as the FBI said in Commission Document (CD) 6, but for some reason their FM-8 cards had different names on them. On those cards they were Stephen Alan Brill and Elaine Esterman Brill.
CD 6, p.319: www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10407&relPageId=318
Commission Exhibit (CE) 2119, pp. 12-13:
www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0286b.htm
Why the difference in the last names? That was never explained for us by the FBI so we will have to think of a reason ourselves. Also, the FM-8 card LHO supposedly used lacked any stamp, typed or handwritten notes that are required. Why is that? We have seen in other posts how the departure bus manifest was taken and did NOT show the name of LHO on it anyway.
The supposed arrival bus manifest dated March 16, 1964, did however as we see in CE 2121 we see a list of people who entered Mexico on September 26, 1963, and there is a “Harvey, Oswald Lee” on it.
CE 2121, p. 23: www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pages/WH_Vol24_0298a.gif
As I have asked before, why did LHO not have the name fixed on his FM-8 card? “Harvey, Oswald Lee” equates with Oswald Lee Harvey and NOT Lee Harvey Oswald, so why would he enter a foreign country with a misspelling like that on his FM-8 card IF we chose to believe the official claim?
LHO himself would deny ever going to Mexico City during his interrogations by the Dallas Police Department (DPD) and FBI. In the WC’s own Report (WCR) they quoted Captain Will Fritz’s report of the interrogations, and this can be read on page 3.
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Mr. Hosty also asked Oswald if he had been to Mexico City, which he denied. (WCR, p. 601; Captain Will Fritz Report, p. 3)
www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0313a.htm
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This is corroborated and confirmed in a joint report by FBI Agents James Hosty and James Bookhout.
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Oswald stated that he had never been in Mexico except to Tijuana on one occasion. (WCR, p. 612)
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If we look at the testimony of FBI Agent James Hosty we have to ask, why did he let this statement by LHO go unchallenged in front of Will Fritz? He said this about Mexico in his WC testimony.
Mr. STERN. What next happened in your effort to locate him?
Mr. HOSTY. I then received a communication on the 25th of October from the New Orleans office advising me that another agency had determined that Lee Oswald was in contact with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City in the early part of October 1963.
According to this testimony by Hosty he knew by October 25, 1963, that LHO had supposedly been in Mexico City making contact with the Soviet Embassy, but when LHO stated he had never been in Mexico beyond one time to Tijuana he never said anything. Could this be because he knew the person who was in Mexico City was NOT LHO? Here again he confirms when he learned of the presence of someone named Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City.
Mr. STERN. And at what time did you know of Oswald's trip to Mexico City and his apparent appearance there at the Russian Embassy?
Mr. HOSTY. The 25th of October.
He would also admit to NOT telling Fritz what he knew about LHO’s alleged visit to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City.
Mr. McCLOY. I didn't hear you repeating your testimony that he denied ever having been in Mexico.
Mr. HOSTY. Oh, yes; he was being questioned about his activities outside or the United States, where he had been outside of the United States. He told Captain Fritz that he had only been to Mexico to visit at Tijuana on the border, and then he did admit having been in Russia.
Mr. McCLOY. He only admitted to having been at Tijuana in Mexico?
Mr. HOSTY. Right.
Mr. McCLOY. Not to Mexico City.
Mr. HOSTY. Not to Mexico City; that is right.
Mr. STERN. Did you tell Captain Fritz at this time any of the information you had about Oswald, about his trip to Mexico, for example?
Mr. HOSTY. No.
Mr. STERN. About his being in touch with the Russian authorities seeking a visa?
Mr. HOSTY. No.
As we have seen before, Hosty was NOT shy about labeling LHO a Communist and pointing blame his way, so why did he keep mum about this supposed visit to Captain Fritz then? What would be gained by not sharing this information? To me, the only reason was he knew it was NOT LHO as we would find out later on when FBI analysis of the tape and image showed it was NOT LHO.
Hosty’s excuse would be that LHO admitted to everything, but we don’t see any admission to his trip to Mexico City in the written reports. So this claim by him does NOT hold up here as a reason for why he did NOT inform Fritz about LHO’s alleged visit to Mexico City IF it was LHO as claimed that was there.
As usual in this case however, we have others who claim he did admit to going to Mexico. Dallas FBI Informant T-7 (Postal Inspector Harry Holmes) said this during his testimony regarding what he heard in LHO’s last interrogation on Sunday morning, November 24, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else about Russia? Did he ever say anything about going to Mexico? Was that ever covered?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes. …he went to the Mexican Embassy to try to get this permission to go to Russia by Cuba, but most of the talks that he wanted to talk about was how he got by with a little amount.
Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that he went to Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what community in Mexico he went to?
Mr. HOLMES. Mexico City.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what he did while he was there?
Mr. HOLMES. He went to the Mexican consulate, I guess.
Mr. BELIN. Is this something that you think you might have picked up from just reading the papers, or is this something you remember hearing?
Mr. HOLMES. That is what he said in there.
So Holmes’ testimony is totally at odds with what Captain Fritz, FBI Agent Hosty and FBI Agent Bookhout said in their reports. Detective L.C. Graves would tell the WC that LHO admitted to going to Mexico as well in his testimony.
Mr. BELIN. That is something I don't want to get into. What about the interrogation? Do you remember any subjects that were covered?
Mr. GRAVES. Well, I couldn't think of Mr. Kelley's name, the last time, but he questioned Oswald along the line of his activity in Mexico and in Russia.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not Oswald admitted that he was in Mexico?
Mr. GRAVES. I believe he did admit it.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he said about his activities in Mexico?
Mr. GRAVES. I am too vague on that to make any statement on what he said.
The see-saw continued when three months after Holmes and Graves testified we see the WC requested affidavits from Secret Service (SS) Inspector Thomas Kelley and SS Agent Forrest Sorrels on this issue. Here is what both of them said.
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3. It is my recollection that during this interrogation [November 24, 1963] Oswald was NOT asked about nor did he speak of a trip to Mexico or plans that he had to go to Cuba. (Thomas Kelley Affidavit, July 30, 1964) (Emphasis added)
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And:
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3. I do not recall that during this interrogation [November 24, 1963] Oswald being questioned about or him making statements about a trip that he took to Mexico or plans that he had to go to Cuba. (Forrest Sorrels Affidavit, August 6, 1964)
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These two affidavits were called for to help push Hosty’s testimony and Holmes and Graves’ recollections over the written reports of Fritz, Bookhout and Hosty in regards to this matter. Clearly, it seems laughable that Kelley and Sorrels would have “no recollection” of this topic being asked about or answered by LHO. It is up to the reader to decide who they want to believe, but keep in mind, going to Mexico City was NOT a crime (and NOTHING would have been done illegal there), so why would he deny this simple trip if he really went?
Of course we could not go on further without bringing in Marina Oswald to this story. She of course would claim LHO went there and that she kept this quiet from everyone including Ruth Paine, but she also would say this to the WC.
Mr. RANKIN. When you were asked before about the trip to Mexico, you did not say that you knew anything about it. Do you want to explain to the Commission how that happened?
Mrs. OSWALD. Most of these questions were put to me by the FBI. I do not like them too much. I didn't want to be too sincere with them. Though I was quite sincere and answered most of their questions. They questioned me a great deal, and I was very tired of them, and I thought that, well, whether I knew about it or didn't know about it didn't change matters at all, it didn't help anything, because the fact that Lee had been there was already known, and whether or not I knew about it didn't make any difference.
She started off by saying she did not want to be too “sincere” with the FBI! How do we take that comment? How was it known that LHO went to Mexico for sure? Especially when she said this in a FBI interview given on November 28, 1963, to Agents Wallace Heitman and Anatole Boguslav.
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Mrs. Oswald advised that upon her departure from New Orleans with Mrs. Paine, it was agreed by her and her husband that Oswald would remain in New Orleans to find work and if he could not find work, he would return to Dallas. Oswald also made the statement that he had a friend in another city and that he might contact this friend to see if he could find work. Mrs.Oswald said she did not think that this was true—she did not believe Oswald had a friend anywhere. She said that it is possible that Mrs. Paine would know who this friend was and what the name of the city was. She said she could not remember.
When asked what the arrangements were at the time she left New Orleans, Mrs. Oswald said that her husband was to remain there in New Orleans or to return to Dallas, but no arrangements were made for him to go to Mexico City. Inasmuch as Mexico City had not been mentioned, she was asked why she had said no arrangements had been made for Oswald to go to Mexico City. She replied that she had been looking at television the past few days and had seen or heard that Oswald had been in Mexico City. She said she was only trying to be helpful and that is the reason she had mentioned Mexico City as she did.
Mrs. Oswald said that she did not know anything about any trip that Oswald may have made to Mexico City. She said that upon Oswald's return to Dallas, which was in early October 1963, she had not asked him where he had been or what he had done because she knew that he had not found work and that it would only embarrass him to ask. She said that Oswald had not volunteered any information about where he had been or what he had done. (CE 1781, pp. 549-550)
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Based on these comments by her on November 28, 1963, how could she feel it was an established fact that LHO went to Mexico City as claimed? Because she willingly volunteered FALSE INFORMATION on her own initiative in order to be “helpful” to the FBI and the authorities. On the very same day we see she did another interview with SS Agent Leon Gopadze and this is what she said in regards to the alleged Mexico City trip.
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She was asked whether she had any knowledge of Lee's trips to. Mexico or Washington, D.C. She replied in the negative. . . . Apparently Marina was very much concerned that Mr. Gregory [present at the interview as interpreter] and I had any doubts as to her sincerity and truthfulness in her answers to our questions. She repeatedly would remark "I hope you believe me, as I swear by God, this is the truth." .. .
After the reporting agent's return to the U.S. Secret Service Office, Dallas, Texas, Marina Oswald had one of the Secret Service agents phone the office and asked for the reporting agent. She apologized for not giving the following information . . . [that] on her departure from New Orleans with Mrs. Paine, Lee told her and Mrs. Paine that he might go to some other cities to look for work, and particularly to a city where one of his friends was living; that the names of both cities were furnished by Lee to Mrs. Paine who no doubt will remember the names and may remember the name of his friend he mentioned. (CE 1792, pp. 6-8)
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If these comments are true this means she provided false information to the FBI to “be helpful” and then gave false information to the SS while “swearing to God” that it was truthful! Clearly we see on November 28, 1963, Marina Oswald had NO inkling LHO went to Mexico City based on her own words, so how did she obtain this knowledge to a point of certainty later on? It should be noted that neither of these comments were made under duress so if she provided false information to both the FBI and SS she did it willingly!
Here Mr. Rankin only shows sympathy for Marina Oswald despite her dishonest actions!
Mr. RANKIN. Was that the only reason that you did not tell about what you knew of the Mexico City trip before?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because the first time that they asked me I said no, I didn't know anything about it. And in all succeeding discussions I couldn't very well have said I did. There is nothing special in that. It wasn't because this was connected with some sort of secret.
There is no in-depth questioning to find out why she withheld this information and certainly no scorn witnesses like Arnold Rowland received when they said things the WC did NOT want to hear. Why NOT? There is no warning from him either about how her testimony differed so much from these earlier statements by her so that future generations reading this would be aware of it. No, it was left to go with NO notations at all.
Her testimony would NOT have been allowed in a court of law and ran counter to official documents, but still she was given free rein to say anything she wanted to say about a dead man’s travels. It is clear through the numerous posts on this topic that there is simply NO evidence showing LHO ever went to Mexico City as claimed by the CIA and WC, however, this does NOT mean someone else didn’t go and acted like they were LHO.