Post by Rob Caprio on Oct 2, 2023 19:47:46 GMT -5
All portions are ©️ Robert Caprio 2006-2024
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The Warren Commission (WC) claimed that Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) assassinated President John F. Kennedy (JFK) on November 22, 1963, with a high-velocity Mannlicher-Carcano (M-C) rifle. The actual evidence shows that this claim is false.
This post will look at the issue of the rifle being a high-velocity weapon.
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This debate has come up due to the cause of death to President John F. Kennedy (JFK) being attributed to a high-velocity bullet. Some people claim that the 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano (M-C) was a high-velocity rifle. So, let's look at some claims by a person who thinks that the M-C was a high-velocity rifle. They come from Gerald Posner and are refuted by James Fetzer.
Quote on
Fallacy #3: page 104, lines 14 to 15:
Posner: "When the FBI ran Oswald's gun through a series of rigorous shooting tests, it concluded 'it is a very accurate weapon'".
[Mark] Lane's chapter provides a nice rebuttal, but Posner has apparently not read it. Other sources provide the strongest confirmation of the absurdity of any claims to accuracy on behalf of this weapon. Indeed, as Anthony Summers, Conspiracy, pp. 46-47, observes, "The original Mannlicher-Carcano [alleged to be Oswald's rifle] was an uncooperative piece of evidence, as army experts discovered after the assassination. As a spokesman put it, one of them 'had difficulty in opening the bolt in his first firing exercise...' He added that, as newcomers to the weapon, 'The pressure to open the bolt was so great that we tended to move the rifle off the target...' An assassin using the Mannlicher-Carcano in Dealey Plaza may, of course, have known the quirks of his weapon, but this account suggests the gun was hardly ideal for feats of marksmanship."
[George] O'Toole reports the commission "also heard rifle experts testify that the telescopic sight could be easily knocked out of adjustment and that this would make accurate shooting with the gun unlikely, that shims had to be inserted to elevate and move the sight before the commission's three marksmen could fire the rifle accurately, and that, even using stationary targets, expert marksmen were unable to equal Oswald's alleged accuracy." (Assassination Tapes, p. 27). No doubt Posner has not read them either. He thus commits a nice example of the fallacy of equivocation: the tests were not done with Oswald's rifle in its original condition, because it was a terrible weapon. When he says, "the FBI ran Oswald's gun through a series of rigorous tests", it was a reconstructed weapon that was not available to LHO, so it is difficult to see how they concluded it was accurate.
Fallacy #4: page 104, lines 15 to 17:
Posner: "It had a low kickback compared to other military rifles, which helped in rapid bolt-action firing."
This is an outstanding case of special pleading, where you cite only evidence favorable to your side and ignore the unfavorable. Kickback is a function of recoil, which is determined by the amount of force directly imparted to your shoulder with a shoulder-supported weapon. That amount of force depends upon the caliber, weight, and charge of the round. A more powerful bullet imparts greater recoil, a less powerful bullet, less recoil, for weapons which can chamber both. Less force, in general, produces less velocity, less penetration power, and often less accuracy. (More detailed discussions may be found in Fadala, Rifle Guide, pp. 38-41, for example, and Withers, Precision Handloading, pp. 135-145).
The "low kickback" of the Mannlicher-Carcano thus indicates that it is a weapon of low penetrating power and probably of low accuracy. There is a great deal of direct and indirect evidence for these conclusions. Rice's Gun Data Book (1975), p. 89, for example, characterizes a cartridge that is manufactured for the Mannlicher-Carcano as follows:
6.5 Italian (Carcano). This cartridge, made by Norma** in a 156 grain bullet, has the slowest muzzle velocity and weakest striking power of any of the 6.5 mm imports, so it is not as popular as its Japanese, German, or Swedish counterparts.
Quote off
[**Norma list the following speeds for the 6.5mm ammo by weight. IF the bullet is 140 grain it will travel at 2224 fps [feet per second] on average (note speed also is reliant on barrel length and we know the alleged rifle is A SHORT RIFLE meaning the barrel is only between 17"-24" long). The 160-grain bullet, the type allegedly used by Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO), travels at 2067fps on average.]
Quote on
As I explained above, the ammunition that Oswald was alleged to have used had not been manufactured by the Western Cartridge Company since 1944, so it is not surprising that a gun data book published in 1975 does not include it. However, since the bullet picked up from a stretcher at Parkland Hospital is alleged to be of the same kind and weighed 158.6 grains, the properties of the Norma and Western cartridges are probably very similar. This inference is supported by the muzzle velocities that are recorded for the Norma bullet:
Cartridge - Carcano
Wt. Grains -156
Type - SP
Velocity:
Muzzle - 2000
100 yds - 1810
200 yds – 1640
SP means "soft point" as opposed to HP "hollow point", BP "bronze point", etc. (Rice, Gun Data Book, p. 118). The bullets that hit JFK are supposed to have been "copper jacketed". Since John Withers observes that "high velocity is a relative term without exact meaning" (Precision Handloading, p. 135), I looked for evidence indicating that "high velocity" and "medium velocity" had an essentially similar meaning around the time of the assassination.
Leyson's New Guns Annual (1961), p. 19, describes a 170 grain, .30/30 bullet which still has a velocity of 1890 fps at 100 yards as a "heavier bullet of slower velocity" than the high velocity bullets he has discussed, such as the Silver Tip 180 grain bullet with a velocity of 2850 fps at 100 yards. Notice, especially, that this .30/30 bullet is traveling faster than the Carcano bullet at 100 yards yet is still described as slower than high velocity. This strongly supports the description of the Mannlicher-Carcano as a medium to low velocity weapon in technical terms that have been constant since at least 1961. As for "helping" with its bolt-action firing, see the discussion of Fallacy #3.
Quote off
So we see at 200 yards the muzzle velocity for the M-C is just 1640 fps on average, and 1640 per second is by NO means a high-velocity bullet and anyone who argues otherwise, is telling a falsehood.
Once again, we see evidence that shows the WC's claim is false, thus, their conclusion is sunk again.
The complete article can be found here.
www.assassinationscience.com/fallacies.html
jfkindex.com/photos/Mannlicher-CarcanoRifle.gif
www.johnkennedy.it/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Photo_naraevid_CE139-2.jpg
The Warren Commission (WC) claimed that Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) assassinated President John F. Kennedy (JFK) on November 22, 1963, with a high-velocity Mannlicher-Carcano (M-C) rifle. The actual evidence shows that this claim is false.
This post will look at the issue of the rifle being a high-velocity weapon.
*******************************************************
This debate has come up due to the cause of death to President John F. Kennedy (JFK) being attributed to a high-velocity bullet. Some people claim that the 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano (M-C) was a high-velocity rifle. So, let's look at some claims by a person who thinks that the M-C was a high-velocity rifle. They come from Gerald Posner and are refuted by James Fetzer.
Quote on
Fallacy #3: page 104, lines 14 to 15:
Posner: "When the FBI ran Oswald's gun through a series of rigorous shooting tests, it concluded 'it is a very accurate weapon'".
[Mark] Lane's chapter provides a nice rebuttal, but Posner has apparently not read it. Other sources provide the strongest confirmation of the absurdity of any claims to accuracy on behalf of this weapon. Indeed, as Anthony Summers, Conspiracy, pp. 46-47, observes, "The original Mannlicher-Carcano [alleged to be Oswald's rifle] was an uncooperative piece of evidence, as army experts discovered after the assassination. As a spokesman put it, one of them 'had difficulty in opening the bolt in his first firing exercise...' He added that, as newcomers to the weapon, 'The pressure to open the bolt was so great that we tended to move the rifle off the target...' An assassin using the Mannlicher-Carcano in Dealey Plaza may, of course, have known the quirks of his weapon, but this account suggests the gun was hardly ideal for feats of marksmanship."
[George] O'Toole reports the commission "also heard rifle experts testify that the telescopic sight could be easily knocked out of adjustment and that this would make accurate shooting with the gun unlikely, that shims had to be inserted to elevate and move the sight before the commission's three marksmen could fire the rifle accurately, and that, even using stationary targets, expert marksmen were unable to equal Oswald's alleged accuracy." (Assassination Tapes, p. 27). No doubt Posner has not read them either. He thus commits a nice example of the fallacy of equivocation: the tests were not done with Oswald's rifle in its original condition, because it was a terrible weapon. When he says, "the FBI ran Oswald's gun through a series of rigorous tests", it was a reconstructed weapon that was not available to LHO, so it is difficult to see how they concluded it was accurate.
Fallacy #4: page 104, lines 15 to 17:
Posner: "It had a low kickback compared to other military rifles, which helped in rapid bolt-action firing."
This is an outstanding case of special pleading, where you cite only evidence favorable to your side and ignore the unfavorable. Kickback is a function of recoil, which is determined by the amount of force directly imparted to your shoulder with a shoulder-supported weapon. That amount of force depends upon the caliber, weight, and charge of the round. A more powerful bullet imparts greater recoil, a less powerful bullet, less recoil, for weapons which can chamber both. Less force, in general, produces less velocity, less penetration power, and often less accuracy. (More detailed discussions may be found in Fadala, Rifle Guide, pp. 38-41, for example, and Withers, Precision Handloading, pp. 135-145).
The "low kickback" of the Mannlicher-Carcano thus indicates that it is a weapon of low penetrating power and probably of low accuracy. There is a great deal of direct and indirect evidence for these conclusions. Rice's Gun Data Book (1975), p. 89, for example, characterizes a cartridge that is manufactured for the Mannlicher-Carcano as follows:
6.5 Italian (Carcano). This cartridge, made by Norma** in a 156 grain bullet, has the slowest muzzle velocity and weakest striking power of any of the 6.5 mm imports, so it is not as popular as its Japanese, German, or Swedish counterparts.
Quote off
[**Norma list the following speeds for the 6.5mm ammo by weight. IF the bullet is 140 grain it will travel at 2224 fps [feet per second] on average (note speed also is reliant on barrel length and we know the alleged rifle is A SHORT RIFLE meaning the barrel is only between 17"-24" long). The 160-grain bullet, the type allegedly used by Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO), travels at 2067fps on average.]
Quote on
As I explained above, the ammunition that Oswald was alleged to have used had not been manufactured by the Western Cartridge Company since 1944, so it is not surprising that a gun data book published in 1975 does not include it. However, since the bullet picked up from a stretcher at Parkland Hospital is alleged to be of the same kind and weighed 158.6 grains, the properties of the Norma and Western cartridges are probably very similar. This inference is supported by the muzzle velocities that are recorded for the Norma bullet:
Cartridge - Carcano
Wt. Grains -156
Type - SP
Velocity:
Muzzle - 2000
100 yds - 1810
200 yds – 1640
SP means "soft point" as opposed to HP "hollow point", BP "bronze point", etc. (Rice, Gun Data Book, p. 118). The bullets that hit JFK are supposed to have been "copper jacketed". Since John Withers observes that "high velocity is a relative term without exact meaning" (Precision Handloading, p. 135), I looked for evidence indicating that "high velocity" and "medium velocity" had an essentially similar meaning around the time of the assassination.
Leyson's New Guns Annual (1961), p. 19, describes a 170 grain, .30/30 bullet which still has a velocity of 1890 fps at 100 yards as a "heavier bullet of slower velocity" than the high velocity bullets he has discussed, such as the Silver Tip 180 grain bullet with a velocity of 2850 fps at 100 yards. Notice, especially, that this .30/30 bullet is traveling faster than the Carcano bullet at 100 yards yet is still described as slower than high velocity. This strongly supports the description of the Mannlicher-Carcano as a medium to low velocity weapon in technical terms that have been constant since at least 1961. As for "helping" with its bolt-action firing, see the discussion of Fallacy #3.
Quote off
So we see at 200 yards the muzzle velocity for the M-C is just 1640 fps on average, and 1640 per second is by NO means a high-velocity bullet and anyone who argues otherwise, is telling a falsehood.
Once again, we see evidence that shows the WC's claim is false, thus, their conclusion is sunk again.
The complete article can be found here.
www.assassinationscience.com/fallacies.html