Post by Rob Caprio on Nov 9, 2018 9:44:34 GMT -5
All portions are ©️ Robert Caprio 2006-2024
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One interesting part of this case that is not discussed much involved a weapon found on the roof of the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) on the day of the assassination. When members of the Dallas Police Department (DPD) brought the weapon down from the roof using the fire escape it was captured on film by a man named Charles Mentesana.
There has been a debate for years of whether it was a rifle or a shotgun seen in the film. Let’s look at this issue more closely now to see what you think.
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The first man who really got into this was Jim Garrison when he was prosecuting Clay Shaw in the late 1960s for the murder of John F. Kennedy (JFK). He was privy to the film Mentesana shot for the by Dallas Cinema Associates and he described what he saw in his book On the Trail of The Assassins (OTTA) when he viewed the film.
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Despite these problems, when the smoke cleared and all the law enforcement authorities in Dallas had their stories duly in order, the official position was that the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Depository was the Mannlicher-Carcano, which allegedly was linked to Oswald under an alias, and not the Mauser, which disappeared forever shortly after it reached the hands of Captain Fritz.
But even this revision of the official story did not explain the third rifle. A film taken by Dallas Cinema Associates, an independent film company, showed a scene of the Book Depository shortly after the assassination. Police officers on the fire escape were bringing down a rifle from the roof above the sixth floor with the tender care you might give an infant. When the policemen reached the ground, a high-ranking officer held the rifle high for everyone to see. The camera zoomed in for a close-up. Beneath the picture was the legend, "The Assassin's Rifle." When I saw the film, I noted that this rifle had no sight mounted on it. Thus it could not have been either the Carcano or the vanished Mauser, both of which had sights.
I was not surprised to find that this third rifle, like the Mauser, had disappeared. But its existence confirmed my hypothesis that Lee Oswald could not have killed John Kennedy as the American public had been told. Setting aside the evidence of two other weapons on the scene, the incredibly accurate shooting of an incredibly inaccurate rifle within an impossible time frame was merely the beginning of the feat we were asked to believe Oswald had accomplished. (OTTA, p. 99)
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You will notice he clearly saw a RIFLE and NOT a shotgun in the film version he saw. The current extant version does not show the high-ranking officer holding the rifle high for everyone to see in it, but there are a few seconds when the weapon is being held high enough to see it past the men standing around. Here is the current version on the Internet.
Also, as we saw in #113 of this series quite a few witnesses, including the WC’s star witness—Howard Brennan, did NOT see a scope on the rifle and the rifle Garrison saw did NOT have one either. Others over the years have contributed more to this story, but let’s first look at someone who had a suspicion that shots came from the ROOF just moments after the shots ended.
Mr. BAKER - We had to walk up another flight of stairs to get up to the top floor.
Mr. BELIN - To get up to the roof?
Mr. BELIN - To the top. What did you do when you got to the top?
Mr. BAKER - We went out on the roof.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do on the roof?
Mr. BAKER - I immediately went around all the sides of the ledges up there, and after I got on top I found out that a person couldn't shoot off that roof because when you stand up you have to put your hands like this, at the top of that ledge and if you wanted to see over you would have to tiptoe to see over it.
Mr. DULLES - If you look right behind you, Officer, you will see a picture and you might point out what the top wall that is shown on that photograph of the building is how high?
Mr. BAKER - Well, it is about 5 feet. I know I had to put my hand on top of it and tiptoe to see over it.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Mr. Dulles is referring to the picture of the School Book Depository building on Exhibit 362 and in demonstrating before the Commission as to where your hands were about how high are they in relation to your shoulders or mouth or chin or what-have-you?
Mr. BAKER - Approximately 5 feet.
He first said a shot from there was impossible because of the wall, but he then admitted the wall was only five feet high. If a man was well past five feet tall (or over six feet) he would have no issue with firing from there. In fact, the wall could have been used as a brace for the rifle.
Baker will say this interesting comment too.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - And then I ran, kind of running walk, went all the way around. First I glanced over this side here, because the last thing I heard here on the radio was the chief saying, "Get some men up on that railroad track."
Mr. BELIN - Did you hear that on your police radio?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; that was the last thing I heard.
SENATOR COOPER - I didn't hear what he said he heard on the radio?
Mr. BAKER - I heard Chief Curry, the chief of the police over there, say, "Get some men over on the railroad track." I think everyone at that time thought these shots came from the railroad track.
Why would “everyone” think the shots came from the area of the railroad tracks IF they didn’t as the WC claimed? Can any WC defender explain this for me?
Baker continues.
Mr. BELIN - Go ahead, if you would, please. You are on the roof now.
Mr. BAKER - Well, as I looked over here, all these people, there were people all over this railroad track.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - Then after I looked to see what was going on down there, and then I figured out that he wouldn't have shot from that ledge he would have shot from this sign or this old room, building back here on the back side.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you are pointing to Exhibit 362 to the sign on the top of the School Book Depository Building, the Hertz sign, and some kind of a structure on the northeast corner of the building, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - That is correct.
Mr. BELIN - Officer Baker, when you talk, I wonder if you would look at me, we might be able to hear a little bit better. Would you tell us what else you did?
Mr. BAKER - As I finished going all around this building here and then I came to this sign and I looked up there to see if I could find anybody hiding up there and I started up these steps, it is a ladder there on that sign, and I got on, say, 10 feet up there and I came back down, I seen that nobody would shoot from up there. He wouldn't have no place to hold on.
Mr. BELIN - By that you are referring to climbing the ladder to climb up the sign, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; this large Hertz sign here.
Mr. BELIN - On the top of the School Book Depository Building on Exhibit 362. All right. Then what did you do?
Mr. BAKER - Then I came back down and I went and checked this building right here. It is an old deserted room there of some type.
Mr. BELIN - Some kind of a shack on the northeast corner of the building?
Mr. BAKER - That is right, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Out there. What did you see when you saw that shack?
Mr. BAKER - As I approached it, and looked under it, there wasn't anything under it, and you could tell that pigeons had been roosting there for sometime.
Mr. BELIN - All right. There were indications that pigeons had been roosting there?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
So there was an “old room, building” near the sign on the roof per Baker. Wouldn’t this provide ideal cover for a shooter? I would think so. This is important too as he would say it looked like the pigeons had been roosting there for some time, but when he looked they were gone!
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Mr. BAKER - No indications that anyone would be around there.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see any pigeons there as you approached it?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir. They had all--at the time I kind of glanced and they were still flying around in the sky up there.
What caused the pigeons to “be up in the sky” and NOT roosting like they had for “sometime” before? Would shots from the sixth floor disturb the pigeons this badly? I doubt it, but shots from the shack on the roof, or the roof itself, sure would.
Let’s look at what Baker’s companion on the roof had to say to the WC.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the seventh floor?
Mr. TRULY. We ran up a little stairway that leads out through a little penthouse on to the roof.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do on the roof?
Mr. TRULY. We ran immediately to the west side of the building. There is a wall around the building that you cannot see over without getting your foot between the mortar of the stones and, or some such toehold. We did that and looked over the ground and the railroad tracks below. There we saw many officers and a lot of spectators, people running up and down.
Mr. BELIN. Did the officer say to you why he wanted to go up to the roof?
Mr. TRULY. No. At that time, he didn't.
Mr. BELIN. Did he ever prior to meeting you again on March 20th tell you why he wanted to go on the roof?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you think the shots came from?
Mr. TRULY. I thought the shots came from the vicinity of the railroad or the WPA project, behind the WPA project west of the building.
This is very interesting because Truly thought the shots came from the vicinity of the RAILROAD tracks, NOT the roof. Baker never told him why he wanted to go to the roof, but obviously he felt the shots (or at least one shot) came from there as he mentioned looking for a place the person could have shot from in his own testimony. Why else would he rush to the roof when the vast majority of the cops were running to the Grassy Knoll (GK) area?
There are TWO corroborating pieces of evidence to support this rifle being found on the roof beyond the film. (This is tantamount in a court of law, as the more corroboration you have for your evidence, the more credible your evidence is.)
1) Forth-Worth Telegram reporter Thayer Waldo questioned a secretary about the rifle on the roof. She had been privy to the police officers' discussion and told Thayer the police found the rifle on "the roof of the TSBD."
Mr. WALDO. … I had talked to my desk at the Star-Telegram, and then I noticed a little flurry of activity, and as I say, during this time several of the high ranking officers, none of whom I knew by name at that time, had come in, and I asked a girl who had been standing with them in Captain King's office, as I recall, just a few minutes, and then came out, "What's going on?" and her answer was, "They found a rifle." I asked, "Where?" and she said, "On the roof of the School Book Depository Building." Of course, I stress this is secondhand information. She is giving it from what she heard from a high ranking official who undoubtedly was told by somebody else. In any case, that information was telephoned to my newspaper and I believe was used in at least one edition. Later it was officially stated, of course, that the rifle had been found on the sixth floor. (XV 590)
2) During the HSCA investigation it was learned that there was a man stationed on the roof of the TSBD, William Seymour - who had a passing resemblance to LHO, who used a Mauser rifle. They learned it was Seymour who used LHO's identity in September and October of 1963, and on his way down the service elevator (or on the way up) he is the one that planted the evidence framing LHO. Seymour and another man made all the evidence to frame LHO with, fake BY photos, they used their own camera to take two photos of Gen. Walker's house to plant in LHO's possession. This is what they found before Blakey came and basically turned it into another WC. One can debate what they claim, but the point is you have two pieces of corroborating evidence to support the visual of the rifle being found on the roof.
Here is what Richard E. Sprauge (HSCA investigator) said about the roof and the rifle in his book, Taking of America, 1,2,3.
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Dealey Plaza
On the day of the assassination four men with rifles, accompanied by their radio men and several other team members, moved into Dealey Plaza. Seymour and a radio man entered the TSBD Building through the freight entrance and worked their way to the roof.
Escape Routes
Seymour left the roof of the TSBD via a back stairway, exited from the freight entrance in the rear of the building, and walked on Houston Street past the Elm Street extension. He walked down the grassy knoll to Elm Street where he was picked up at 12:40 p.m. by the white station wagon. (Richard E. Sprague, Taking of America, 1, 2,3, Chapter 5)
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On the other side some researchers claim what was seen was a DPD shotgun. I have chronicled this before on this board. One of the men to claim this is Walt Cakebread who claims to be a JFK researcher for over forty years. He made this claim on ACJ years ago.
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Walt's claim:
Walt never proved his claim that the weapon found on the roof was a DPD shotgun.
Walt has made his OPINION known on this issue (the Mentesana film/photograph) and he claims the weapon found on the roof was a DPD shotgun!
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You might be thinking, what evidence did he put forth for this assertion? And the answer would be NONE. He simply gave us his opinion and stated it as a FACT.
Another researcher who claims it is a DPD shotgun is Anthony Marsh. He wrote a letter to Robert Groden telling him this many years ago. Robert Harris joined in and posted this on ACJ.
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One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film, which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun, issued by the DPD. Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his subjective opinion.
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a lot stupider than that:-) (Robert Harris)
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Walt Cakebread would respond to Robert Harris’ post for Tony Marsh.
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Bob If you don't know much about firearms ( and apparently you don't) then you should just keep you opinon (sic) to yourself. The Mentesanta (sic) photo doesn't prove anything, except that fools will believe anything. I am familar (sic) with firearms, and I wouldn't bet a saw buck that the weapon seen in the photo is a rifle, but I believe it is a shotgun.
That's not based on the LENGTH of the weapon. Rifles and shotguns can be the same length, and depending on the model a rtfle (sic) might be longer than a shotgun or vice versa. The DIAMETER of the barrel of the weapon in the Mentesanta (sic) photo is the dimension that makes it appear to be a standard 12 gauge shotgun.
By claiming that it could be a rifle you only stir up ill conceived theories. Theories that should have been discarded 40 years ago. (Walt—9/9/06)
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What we see here is standard for Walt, all opinion and NO supporting evidence. Opinion is fine as we all have one, but to state it as a FACT as Walt and Tony have done for years is silly since they have NO supporting evidence. Here is what Tony Marsh has said about the issue in the past.
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Wrong. Did you actually read the letter I sent to Groden? No, of course not. I rest my case. You simply don't know what the Hell (sic) you are talking about. Here is what I said in this newsgroup on Aug 26, 2004: No, the barrel is too big. And you can see the magazine cap. **The profile matches a Remington 780 pump shotgun**, one of the types
that other photos show some DPD officers carrying.” (Tony Marsh)
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What evidence has Tony put up? NONE is the correct answer. Again, we see his opinion and claim of knowing firearms as his “evidence.”
Again, here is what Jim Garrison said about the weapon after watching the Mentesana film.
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The rifle encountered was triumphantly brought down from the depository by Dallas police officers a few minutes after 1:00 P.M.
Its discovery was recorded on film by a cameraman named Mentesana and made available commercially in the Dallas Cinema Associates film of the assassination. In the film, the rifle is being held aloft by a policeman, and other officers and citizens are crowded around to stare at this nearly historic weapon. Beneath the filmed scene is the legend "The Assassin's Rifle." Unlike the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle subsequently produced as Lee Oswald's murder weapon, "The Assassin's Rifle" has no telescopic sight on it. This rifle has never been publicly seen since. (OTTA, p. 99)
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Now compare this to what Tony Marsh has written about the weapon seen (albeit with an EXTANT version of the Mentesana film) being brought down from the roof of the TSBD.
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But the weapon in the Mentesana film is not a rifle. It is a shotgun. The diameter of the barrel and the bore of Mentesana weapon is too large for a rifle. Because some shotguns have distinctive profiles and magazine caps, they can be easily identified. The SHOTGUN the policeman is holding is, in FACT, a Remington 870. (Marsh, “No Mentesana Rifle, The Assassination Chronicles, 1996, p. 24)
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More evidence is the fact the barrel seen in the Mentesana film extends 10-12” while the barrel on CE-139 (alleged murder weapon, M-C) extends ONLY 4-6” from the stock (Shaw & Harris, 1992, p. 129). Could it be a shotgun? Sure, but we are NOT seeing evidence that it IS a shotgun. Did someone shoot from the roof? I don’t know, but perhaps they did as again I don’t think shots from the sixth floor ALONE would have caused the pigeons to fly off like they did. Perhaps shots from other parts of the plaza would though and that is what happened based on the evidence.
Maybe the final word on this is the FACT that Charles Mentesana wound up on the “suspicious deaths” list as he suffered a heart attack at age 50!
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1969 Charles Mentesana--Filmed rifle other than Mannlicher-Carcano being taken from Depository--Heart attack
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The best evidence we have is the INTACT film Jim Garrison saw as it showed a rifle with NO scope or sling on it and the alleged murder weapon, CE-139, had BOTH. Why would someone take the time to insert a LEGEND saying “The Assassin’s Rifle” IF it was really a shotgun as some claim? Does this make any sense?
The bottom line is this, again we see the evidence of the case points to a conclusion that is COUNTER to what the WC would claim, which was, LHO fired three shots all by himself from the eastern sixth floor window of the TSBD. Again, we see evidence that sinks this conclusion.
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One interesting part of this case that is not discussed much involved a weapon found on the roof of the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) on the day of the assassination. When members of the Dallas Police Department (DPD) brought the weapon down from the roof using the fire escape it was captured on film by a man named Charles Mentesana.
There has been a debate for years of whether it was a rifle or a shotgun seen in the film. Let’s look at this issue more closely now to see what you think.
*************************
The first man who really got into this was Jim Garrison when he was prosecuting Clay Shaw in the late 1960s for the murder of John F. Kennedy (JFK). He was privy to the film Mentesana shot for the by Dallas Cinema Associates and he described what he saw in his book On the Trail of The Assassins (OTTA) when he viewed the film.
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Despite these problems, when the smoke cleared and all the law enforcement authorities in Dallas had their stories duly in order, the official position was that the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Depository was the Mannlicher-Carcano, which allegedly was linked to Oswald under an alias, and not the Mauser, which disappeared forever shortly after it reached the hands of Captain Fritz.
But even this revision of the official story did not explain the third rifle. A film taken by Dallas Cinema Associates, an independent film company, showed a scene of the Book Depository shortly after the assassination. Police officers on the fire escape were bringing down a rifle from the roof above the sixth floor with the tender care you might give an infant. When the policemen reached the ground, a high-ranking officer held the rifle high for everyone to see. The camera zoomed in for a close-up. Beneath the picture was the legend, "The Assassin's Rifle." When I saw the film, I noted that this rifle had no sight mounted on it. Thus it could not have been either the Carcano or the vanished Mauser, both of which had sights.
I was not surprised to find that this third rifle, like the Mauser, had disappeared. But its existence confirmed my hypothesis that Lee Oswald could not have killed John Kennedy as the American public had been told. Setting aside the evidence of two other weapons on the scene, the incredibly accurate shooting of an incredibly inaccurate rifle within an impossible time frame was merely the beginning of the feat we were asked to believe Oswald had accomplished. (OTTA, p. 99)
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You will notice he clearly saw a RIFLE and NOT a shotgun in the film version he saw. The current extant version does not show the high-ranking officer holding the rifle high for everyone to see in it, but there are a few seconds when the weapon is being held high enough to see it past the men standing around. Here is the current version on the Internet.
Also, as we saw in #113 of this series quite a few witnesses, including the WC’s star witness—Howard Brennan, did NOT see a scope on the rifle and the rifle Garrison saw did NOT have one either. Others over the years have contributed more to this story, but let’s first look at someone who had a suspicion that shots came from the ROOF just moments after the shots ended.
Mr. BAKER - We had to walk up another flight of stairs to get up to the top floor.
Mr. BELIN - To get up to the roof?
Mr. BELIN - To the top. What did you do when you got to the top?
Mr. BAKER - We went out on the roof.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do on the roof?
Mr. BAKER - I immediately went around all the sides of the ledges up there, and after I got on top I found out that a person couldn't shoot off that roof because when you stand up you have to put your hands like this, at the top of that ledge and if you wanted to see over you would have to tiptoe to see over it.
Mr. DULLES - If you look right behind you, Officer, you will see a picture and you might point out what the top wall that is shown on that photograph of the building is how high?
Mr. BAKER - Well, it is about 5 feet. I know I had to put my hand on top of it and tiptoe to see over it.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Mr. Dulles is referring to the picture of the School Book Depository building on Exhibit 362 and in demonstrating before the Commission as to where your hands were about how high are they in relation to your shoulders or mouth or chin or what-have-you?
Mr. BAKER - Approximately 5 feet.
He first said a shot from there was impossible because of the wall, but he then admitted the wall was only five feet high. If a man was well past five feet tall (or over six feet) he would have no issue with firing from there. In fact, the wall could have been used as a brace for the rifle.
Baker will say this interesting comment too.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - And then I ran, kind of running walk, went all the way around. First I glanced over this side here, because the last thing I heard here on the radio was the chief saying, "Get some men up on that railroad track."
Mr. BELIN - Did you hear that on your police radio?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; that was the last thing I heard.
SENATOR COOPER - I didn't hear what he said he heard on the radio?
Mr. BAKER - I heard Chief Curry, the chief of the police over there, say, "Get some men over on the railroad track." I think everyone at that time thought these shots came from the railroad track.
Why would “everyone” think the shots came from the area of the railroad tracks IF they didn’t as the WC claimed? Can any WC defender explain this for me?
Baker continues.
Mr. BELIN - Go ahead, if you would, please. You are on the roof now.
Mr. BAKER - Well, as I looked over here, all these people, there were people all over this railroad track.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - Then after I looked to see what was going on down there, and then I figured out that he wouldn't have shot from that ledge he would have shot from this sign or this old room, building back here on the back side.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you are pointing to Exhibit 362 to the sign on the top of the School Book Depository Building, the Hertz sign, and some kind of a structure on the northeast corner of the building, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - That is correct.
Mr. BELIN - Officer Baker, when you talk, I wonder if you would look at me, we might be able to hear a little bit better. Would you tell us what else you did?
Mr. BAKER - As I finished going all around this building here and then I came to this sign and I looked up there to see if I could find anybody hiding up there and I started up these steps, it is a ladder there on that sign, and I got on, say, 10 feet up there and I came back down, I seen that nobody would shoot from up there. He wouldn't have no place to hold on.
Mr. BELIN - By that you are referring to climbing the ladder to climb up the sign, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; this large Hertz sign here.
Mr. BELIN - On the top of the School Book Depository Building on Exhibit 362. All right. Then what did you do?
Mr. BAKER - Then I came back down and I went and checked this building right here. It is an old deserted room there of some type.
Mr. BELIN - Some kind of a shack on the northeast corner of the building?
Mr. BAKER - That is right, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Out there. What did you see when you saw that shack?
Mr. BAKER - As I approached it, and looked under it, there wasn't anything under it, and you could tell that pigeons had been roosting there for sometime.
Mr. BELIN - All right. There were indications that pigeons had been roosting there?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
So there was an “old room, building” near the sign on the roof per Baker. Wouldn’t this provide ideal cover for a shooter? I would think so. This is important too as he would say it looked like the pigeons had been roosting there for some time, but when he looked they were gone!
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Mr. BAKER - No indications that anyone would be around there.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see any pigeons there as you approached it?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir. They had all--at the time I kind of glanced and they were still flying around in the sky up there.
What caused the pigeons to “be up in the sky” and NOT roosting like they had for “sometime” before? Would shots from the sixth floor disturb the pigeons this badly? I doubt it, but shots from the shack on the roof, or the roof itself, sure would.
Let’s look at what Baker’s companion on the roof had to say to the WC.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the seventh floor?
Mr. TRULY. We ran up a little stairway that leads out through a little penthouse on to the roof.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do on the roof?
Mr. TRULY. We ran immediately to the west side of the building. There is a wall around the building that you cannot see over without getting your foot between the mortar of the stones and, or some such toehold. We did that and looked over the ground and the railroad tracks below. There we saw many officers and a lot of spectators, people running up and down.
Mr. BELIN. Did the officer say to you why he wanted to go up to the roof?
Mr. TRULY. No. At that time, he didn't.
Mr. BELIN. Did he ever prior to meeting you again on March 20th tell you why he wanted to go on the roof?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you think the shots came from?
Mr. TRULY. I thought the shots came from the vicinity of the railroad or the WPA project, behind the WPA project west of the building.
This is very interesting because Truly thought the shots came from the vicinity of the RAILROAD tracks, NOT the roof. Baker never told him why he wanted to go to the roof, but obviously he felt the shots (or at least one shot) came from there as he mentioned looking for a place the person could have shot from in his own testimony. Why else would he rush to the roof when the vast majority of the cops were running to the Grassy Knoll (GK) area?
There are TWO corroborating pieces of evidence to support this rifle being found on the roof beyond the film. (This is tantamount in a court of law, as the more corroboration you have for your evidence, the more credible your evidence is.)
1) Forth-Worth Telegram reporter Thayer Waldo questioned a secretary about the rifle on the roof. She had been privy to the police officers' discussion and told Thayer the police found the rifle on "the roof of the TSBD."
Mr. WALDO. … I had talked to my desk at the Star-Telegram, and then I noticed a little flurry of activity, and as I say, during this time several of the high ranking officers, none of whom I knew by name at that time, had come in, and I asked a girl who had been standing with them in Captain King's office, as I recall, just a few minutes, and then came out, "What's going on?" and her answer was, "They found a rifle." I asked, "Where?" and she said, "On the roof of the School Book Depository Building." Of course, I stress this is secondhand information. She is giving it from what she heard from a high ranking official who undoubtedly was told by somebody else. In any case, that information was telephoned to my newspaper and I believe was used in at least one edition. Later it was officially stated, of course, that the rifle had been found on the sixth floor. (XV 590)
2) During the HSCA investigation it was learned that there was a man stationed on the roof of the TSBD, William Seymour - who had a passing resemblance to LHO, who used a Mauser rifle. They learned it was Seymour who used LHO's identity in September and October of 1963, and on his way down the service elevator (or on the way up) he is the one that planted the evidence framing LHO. Seymour and another man made all the evidence to frame LHO with, fake BY photos, they used their own camera to take two photos of Gen. Walker's house to plant in LHO's possession. This is what they found before Blakey came and basically turned it into another WC. One can debate what they claim, but the point is you have two pieces of corroborating evidence to support the visual of the rifle being found on the roof.
Here is what Richard E. Sprauge (HSCA investigator) said about the roof and the rifle in his book, Taking of America, 1,2,3.
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Dealey Plaza
On the day of the assassination four men with rifles, accompanied by their radio men and several other team members, moved into Dealey Plaza. Seymour and a radio man entered the TSBD Building through the freight entrance and worked their way to the roof.
Escape Routes
Seymour left the roof of the TSBD via a back stairway, exited from the freight entrance in the rear of the building, and walked on Houston Street past the Elm Street extension. He walked down the grassy knoll to Elm Street where he was picked up at 12:40 p.m. by the white station wagon. (Richard E. Sprague, Taking of America, 1, 2,3, Chapter 5)
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On the other side some researchers claim what was seen was a DPD shotgun. I have chronicled this before on this board. One of the men to claim this is Walt Cakebread who claims to be a JFK researcher for over forty years. He made this claim on ACJ years ago.
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Walt's claim:
Walt never proved his claim that the weapon found on the roof was a DPD shotgun.
Walt has made his OPINION known on this issue (the Mentesana film/photograph) and he claims the weapon found on the roof was a DPD shotgun!
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You might be thinking, what evidence did he put forth for this assertion? And the answer would be NONE. He simply gave us his opinion and stated it as a FACT.
Another researcher who claims it is a DPD shotgun is Anthony Marsh. He wrote a letter to Robert Groden telling him this many years ago. Robert Harris joined in and posted this on ACJ.
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One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film, which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun, issued by the DPD. Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his subjective opinion.
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a lot stupider than that:-) (Robert Harris)
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Walt Cakebread would respond to Robert Harris’ post for Tony Marsh.
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Bob If you don't know much about firearms ( and apparently you don't) then you should just keep you opinon (sic) to yourself. The Mentesanta (sic) photo doesn't prove anything, except that fools will believe anything. I am familar (sic) with firearms, and I wouldn't bet a saw buck that the weapon seen in the photo is a rifle, but I believe it is a shotgun.
That's not based on the LENGTH of the weapon. Rifles and shotguns can be the same length, and depending on the model a rtfle (sic) might be longer than a shotgun or vice versa. The DIAMETER of the barrel of the weapon in the Mentesanta (sic) photo is the dimension that makes it appear to be a standard 12 gauge shotgun.
By claiming that it could be a rifle you only stir up ill conceived theories. Theories that should have been discarded 40 years ago. (Walt—9/9/06)
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What we see here is standard for Walt, all opinion and NO supporting evidence. Opinion is fine as we all have one, but to state it as a FACT as Walt and Tony have done for years is silly since they have NO supporting evidence. Here is what Tony Marsh has said about the issue in the past.
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Wrong. Did you actually read the letter I sent to Groden? No, of course not. I rest my case. You simply don't know what the Hell (sic) you are talking about. Here is what I said in this newsgroup on Aug 26, 2004: No, the barrel is too big. And you can see the magazine cap. **The profile matches a Remington 780 pump shotgun**, one of the types
that other photos show some DPD officers carrying.” (Tony Marsh)
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What evidence has Tony put up? NONE is the correct answer. Again, we see his opinion and claim of knowing firearms as his “evidence.”
Again, here is what Jim Garrison said about the weapon after watching the Mentesana film.
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The rifle encountered was triumphantly brought down from the depository by Dallas police officers a few minutes after 1:00 P.M.
Its discovery was recorded on film by a cameraman named Mentesana and made available commercially in the Dallas Cinema Associates film of the assassination. In the film, the rifle is being held aloft by a policeman, and other officers and citizens are crowded around to stare at this nearly historic weapon. Beneath the filmed scene is the legend "The Assassin's Rifle." Unlike the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle subsequently produced as Lee Oswald's murder weapon, "The Assassin's Rifle" has no telescopic sight on it. This rifle has never been publicly seen since. (OTTA, p. 99)
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Now compare this to what Tony Marsh has written about the weapon seen (albeit with an EXTANT version of the Mentesana film) being brought down from the roof of the TSBD.
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But the weapon in the Mentesana film is not a rifle. It is a shotgun. The diameter of the barrel and the bore of Mentesana weapon is too large for a rifle. Because some shotguns have distinctive profiles and magazine caps, they can be easily identified. The SHOTGUN the policeman is holding is, in FACT, a Remington 870. (Marsh, “No Mentesana Rifle, The Assassination Chronicles, 1996, p. 24)
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More evidence is the fact the barrel seen in the Mentesana film extends 10-12” while the barrel on CE-139 (alleged murder weapon, M-C) extends ONLY 4-6” from the stock (Shaw & Harris, 1992, p. 129). Could it be a shotgun? Sure, but we are NOT seeing evidence that it IS a shotgun. Did someone shoot from the roof? I don’t know, but perhaps they did as again I don’t think shots from the sixth floor ALONE would have caused the pigeons to fly off like they did. Perhaps shots from other parts of the plaza would though and that is what happened based on the evidence.
Maybe the final word on this is the FACT that Charles Mentesana wound up on the “suspicious deaths” list as he suffered a heart attack at age 50!
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1969 Charles Mentesana--Filmed rifle other than Mannlicher-Carcano being taken from Depository--Heart attack
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The best evidence we have is the INTACT film Jim Garrison saw as it showed a rifle with NO scope or sling on it and the alleged murder weapon, CE-139, had BOTH. Why would someone take the time to insert a LEGEND saying “The Assassin’s Rifle” IF it was really a shotgun as some claim? Does this make any sense?
The bottom line is this, again we see the evidence of the case points to a conclusion that is COUNTER to what the WC would claim, which was, LHO fired three shots all by himself from the eastern sixth floor window of the TSBD. Again, we see evidence that sinks this conclusion.