Post by Rob Caprio on Nov 9, 2018 22:00:19 GMT -5
All portions ©️Robert Caprio 2006-2024
content.invisioncic.com/r16296/av-6334.jpg
This post is a great example of a conversation with a WC defender. They make a lot of claims, but rarely cite any supporting evidence outside of the testimony that was not exposed to cross-examination.
They instead claim to use "common sense" and blame the CTers for having an "impossible standard." If they really had common sense then they would realize that they are defending a theory with NO supporting evidence.
More David Von Pein dialog from 4/2006.
Single-Bullet Hyperbole
"The 'Single-Bullet Theory' (which nearly all conspiracy theorists hate with a vicious passion, despite the fact that it is the ONLY conceivable way the shooting could have possibly occurred, given the known factors in evidence):
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Of course it is the only conceivable way it could have happened when it is claimed that 2 shots accounted for 8 wounds. I like the term "known factors in evidence", this really isn’t the same as all the evidence now is it?
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It's my belief that virtually anyone with an ounce of common sense and a small bit of brain power could have (and would have) ultimately come up with the 'SBT', given the evidence that is on the table surrounding the events of November 22nd, 1963, in Dallas.
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This is an unbelievable statement given the known facts of the SBT. It required the moving of wounds, the realigning of body positions and the ridiculous magic bullet to pull it off, but DVP says, "It's my belief that virtually anyone with an ounce of common sense and a small bit of brain power could have (and would have) ultimately come up with the SBT." Perhaps, if they are science fiction writers or mystery writers they could have. But what normal, common sense person would dream up that fantasy?
The actual evidence found in the twenty-six volumes does NOT support the claim of the SBT so that is why LNers rely on what “common sense" would do all the time.
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In short, there simply IS no other valid and logical conclusion to the simultaneous wounding of President Kennedy and Governor John Connally. None. Donald Duck could have figured it out given the following parameters......
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This guy is just playing games readers, he knows the real answer is multiple gunmen. We are talking about the murder of a president, do you really think one man with a bad rifle could do this all by himself?
He says there is NO other valid or logical conclusion to the simultaneous wounding of JFK and JBC. First of all, who says beyond the Warren Commission they were wounded by the same bullet? Not John Connally. Not Nellie Connally. None of the witnesses said this and the Zapruder film shows they are hit at different times. Where is he getting this stuff?
Of course Donald Duck could have figured it out "given the parameters" as it was decided from the beginning to frame LHO so they made the "evidence" fit this instead of the normal process of following the evidence to the guilty party or parties.
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1.) Pretty much a straight-line bullet path from Kennedy to Connally. (Taking into account, of course, the automatic restriction of not being able to pinpoint to the exact square-inch where JFK was in the limousine in comparison to Connally's seated position.)
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This is not true either as JFK was over to the left more than Connally, who was right up against the door. IF the bullet could somehow do what the WC said, enter JFK's back and exit through the throat, they were not lined up properly for the bullet to go into the right side of JBC's back.
Also, the bullet was moving right to left and downward so how did it go UP and to the right?
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2.) Not a single bullet found in JFK's body.
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Again, not true. At least one bullet was removed from JFK according to researchers, but it was NOT from the alleged murder weapon so it was discarded. It was supposedly embedded in the back of the right ear.
Another bullet fell out of JFK due to cardiac massage and this is the bullet found on the stretcher that was claimed to be CE399, but was not. The bullet originally found was a pointed tipped bullet and NOT a rounded nosed bullet like CE 399. There is NO chain of custody for CE 399.
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3.) Not a single bullet found in John Connally's body.
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Not true again, research has shown a bullet was found in wrappings later as it must have worked its way out of him but the WC all of sudden, and out of character, worried about the chain of custody due to how it was found. Given their shoddy record in this department, it more was likely due to it NOT being from the Carcano rifle.
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3.) Not a speck of bodily damage done to JFK's innards (neck or back regions), save the very slight bruising of a lung (said to have been caused by the mere "passage" of the bullet through the body, but not via a direct strike) and slight damage to the trachea as the missile exited JFK's throat.
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This is not true yet again. He had a wound that DID NOT penetrate in the shoulder blade area. This is the wound the bullet fell out of due to cardiac massage. It was determined to be so by Dr. Humes, and two FBI agents, O'Neill and Siebert. Dr. Mantik has shown through MRI technology that it is impossible for a bullet to go through the neck region and NOT hit the spine at all, yet no damage was ever found. The "wound" to make the SBT work was made up as JFK DID NOT have a real wound at the base of the neck on the right side (or the left side either).
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4.) Bullet CE399 is the only bullet found which could be connected to either man's wounds (and found in the hospital where the victims were taken no less).
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Boy, Dave is riding first class on the dishonest train. CE 399 was NEVER linked to either man since it lacked blood, tissue and clothing striations to prove it was ever inside either man. It was found under very suspicious circumstances and the man who found it, Darrell Tomlinson, said he COULD NOT say it was from Connally's stretcher. Furthermore, he would say the bullet
he found was NOT THE SAME ONE the WC passed off as CE 399.
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5.) No damage done to the back seats of the limousine.
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What this has to do with the price of tea in China is beyond me. The shooters would be shooting for the upper extremities to kill, not damage seats.
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6.) No other people wounded in the limousine.
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Which shows the shooters were professionals, not an amateur like LHO.
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7.) No whole bullets found in the limousine.
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That we know of, but if not, that is not unusual. Full metal jacketed bullets are designed to pass through a victim so this is what happened most likely. Furthermore, since the limousine was illegally taken from the area with the jurisdiction by the SS we have NO way of knowing what was actually found in the limousine.
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I highly recommend that every person interested in the SBT (and the Kennedy assassination in general) take a good, long look at the Discovery Channel's re-creation of the SBT performed in Australia in October 2004. That re-creation very nearly duplicated the SBT/CE399 path through TWO bodies (mock-ups of the victims), and came fairly close to duplicating the way bullet CE399 ended up looking on 11/22/63. Not a perfect match, true. But the shooting can NEVER be duplicated with 100%accuracy...and it is completely unreasonable to think it ever could be (especially given the bodily damage within two human victims that NEEDS to be done to perfection to make an exacting duplication come to fruition; which is just not feasible).
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Typical LNer comment. Instead of requesting that interested parties go to the twenty-six volumes to read the actual evidence he sends them to a doctored up recreation. Why are LNers afraid of the evidence? Because it doesn't support a single claim that the WC made regarding the crimes that they accused LHO of.
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But within a normal and reasonable percentage of "plus or minus of probability", that 2004 test PROVES BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT that the Single-Bullet Theory is (and was) a shooting event that could most certainly have occurred from a 60-foot-high perch.
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Plus or minus of probability? LHO had one chance and he had a crappy rifle with a loose scope and he got two hits in 6 seconds, and these guys with much better equipment, a controlled environment, do overs, and who knows what other advantages can only produce a success with an appropriate plus probability? How does this prove your case? It proves to me how ridiculous the SBT, and the shooting scenario in general, are.
The actual evidence sinks the SBT and that is why he is avoiding it.
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If conspiracists cannot see that....then that provides proof beyond a reasonable doubt, in my view, that such CTers just refuse to be convinced of the SBT's possibility no matter what is demonstrated to them.
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Possibility? This is NOT what the WC said, they said it was DEFINITELY achieved by a lone nut. Your test (which could not match LHO's feat as no test has) just shows how false their claim was.
This is a perfect example of the way in which LNers work. They avoid the actual evidence and instead rely on “common sense", probabilities in regard to rigged tests and blame the CTers for why they can't cite supporting evidence.
Quote on
And I also find it very revealing that it seems that no conspiracy promoters have a desire to try to "re-create" the SBT with tests of their own (sponsored by, say, Robert J. Groden, or Oliver Stone, or James Fetzer, or Mark Lane, et al), in order to "prove" once and for all that the SBT is an "impossible" shooting feat.
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Because pure common sense says it is not possible. In the one in a trillion chance it could be done, the bullet would NOT come out virtually intact. So you have nothing needing a full test to disprove. In fact, all the test the pro-WC people have done keep reinforcing how unattainable the SBT really is.
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"It's even MORE interesting to note that all of the SBT "tests" and "re-creations" that have been done (e.g., the 2004 Australian test I just mentioned, plus the FAA computer simulation test done in the 1980s, and the more-recent computer-model animations done by Dale K. Myers) show just exactly the opposite of what CTers seem to believe --i.e., all of those tests show that the Single-Bullet Theory is a definite possibility.
Quote off
Definite POSSIBILITY? This doesn't cut it, it has to be shown it is DEFINITELY ACHIEVABLE in all the tests they do. In other words, if they run 20 tests it should be achievable in 20 tests, with maybe a 1-2 variance, to make it a legitimate test. IF LHO did it, it has to be definitely doable, not just possible. Do computer animations have wind? I guess it can factor in the effects of wind, but is it the same? Doubt it.
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And, when factoring in all the variables of the shooting -- such as: no whole bullets found in JFK's body (or in the back seats of the limousine), the alignment of the victims in the car, and the official autopsy report which says that one bullet travelled straight through JFK and exited his neck -- the SBT then comes much closer to an absolute CERTAINTY, rather than just a mere 'Theory'.
Quote off
But as I outlined above, these are all faulty premises on your part. Sure if you ignore what really happened than the SBT is a possibility, but that is true of any event if you ignore the real factors involved.
Also, with the limousine illegally seized we have no way of knowing exactly what was found, thus, anything can be claimed regarding it.
content.invisioncic.com/r16296/av-6334.jpg
This post is a great example of a conversation with a WC defender. They make a lot of claims, but rarely cite any supporting evidence outside of the testimony that was not exposed to cross-examination.
They instead claim to use "common sense" and blame the CTers for having an "impossible standard." If they really had common sense then they would realize that they are defending a theory with NO supporting evidence.
More David Von Pein dialog from 4/2006.
Single-Bullet Hyperbole
"The 'Single-Bullet Theory' (which nearly all conspiracy theorists hate with a vicious passion, despite the fact that it is the ONLY conceivable way the shooting could have possibly occurred, given the known factors in evidence):
Quote off
Of course it is the only conceivable way it could have happened when it is claimed that 2 shots accounted for 8 wounds. I like the term "known factors in evidence", this really isn’t the same as all the evidence now is it?
Quote on
It's my belief that virtually anyone with an ounce of common sense and a small bit of brain power could have (and would have) ultimately come up with the 'SBT', given the evidence that is on the table surrounding the events of November 22nd, 1963, in Dallas.
Quote off
This is an unbelievable statement given the known facts of the SBT. It required the moving of wounds, the realigning of body positions and the ridiculous magic bullet to pull it off, but DVP says, "It's my belief that virtually anyone with an ounce of common sense and a small bit of brain power could have (and would have) ultimately come up with the SBT." Perhaps, if they are science fiction writers or mystery writers they could have. But what normal, common sense person would dream up that fantasy?
The actual evidence found in the twenty-six volumes does NOT support the claim of the SBT so that is why LNers rely on what “common sense" would do all the time.
Quote on
In short, there simply IS no other valid and logical conclusion to the simultaneous wounding of President Kennedy and Governor John Connally. None. Donald Duck could have figured it out given the following parameters......
Quote off
This guy is just playing games readers, he knows the real answer is multiple gunmen. We are talking about the murder of a president, do you really think one man with a bad rifle could do this all by himself?
He says there is NO other valid or logical conclusion to the simultaneous wounding of JFK and JBC. First of all, who says beyond the Warren Commission they were wounded by the same bullet? Not John Connally. Not Nellie Connally. None of the witnesses said this and the Zapruder film shows they are hit at different times. Where is he getting this stuff?
Of course Donald Duck could have figured it out "given the parameters" as it was decided from the beginning to frame LHO so they made the "evidence" fit this instead of the normal process of following the evidence to the guilty party or parties.
Quote on
1.) Pretty much a straight-line bullet path from Kennedy to Connally. (Taking into account, of course, the automatic restriction of not being able to pinpoint to the exact square-inch where JFK was in the limousine in comparison to Connally's seated position.)
Quote off
This is not true either as JFK was over to the left more than Connally, who was right up against the door. IF the bullet could somehow do what the WC said, enter JFK's back and exit through the throat, they were not lined up properly for the bullet to go into the right side of JBC's back.
Also, the bullet was moving right to left and downward so how did it go UP and to the right?
Quote on
2.) Not a single bullet found in JFK's body.
Quote off
Again, not true. At least one bullet was removed from JFK according to researchers, but it was NOT from the alleged murder weapon so it was discarded. It was supposedly embedded in the back of the right ear.
Another bullet fell out of JFK due to cardiac massage and this is the bullet found on the stretcher that was claimed to be CE399, but was not. The bullet originally found was a pointed tipped bullet and NOT a rounded nosed bullet like CE 399. There is NO chain of custody for CE 399.
Quote on
3.) Not a single bullet found in John Connally's body.
Quote off
Not true again, research has shown a bullet was found in wrappings later as it must have worked its way out of him but the WC all of sudden, and out of character, worried about the chain of custody due to how it was found. Given their shoddy record in this department, it more was likely due to it NOT being from the Carcano rifle.
Quote on
3.) Not a speck of bodily damage done to JFK's innards (neck or back regions), save the very slight bruising of a lung (said to have been caused by the mere "passage" of the bullet through the body, but not via a direct strike) and slight damage to the trachea as the missile exited JFK's throat.
Quote off
This is not true yet again. He had a wound that DID NOT penetrate in the shoulder blade area. This is the wound the bullet fell out of due to cardiac massage. It was determined to be so by Dr. Humes, and two FBI agents, O'Neill and Siebert. Dr. Mantik has shown through MRI technology that it is impossible for a bullet to go through the neck region and NOT hit the spine at all, yet no damage was ever found. The "wound" to make the SBT work was made up as JFK DID NOT have a real wound at the base of the neck on the right side (or the left side either).
Quote on
4.) Bullet CE399 is the only bullet found which could be connected to either man's wounds (and found in the hospital where the victims were taken no less).
Quote off
Boy, Dave is riding first class on the dishonest train. CE 399 was NEVER linked to either man since it lacked blood, tissue and clothing striations to prove it was ever inside either man. It was found under very suspicious circumstances and the man who found it, Darrell Tomlinson, said he COULD NOT say it was from Connally's stretcher. Furthermore, he would say the bullet
he found was NOT THE SAME ONE the WC passed off as CE 399.
Quote on
5.) No damage done to the back seats of the limousine.
Quote off
What this has to do with the price of tea in China is beyond me. The shooters would be shooting for the upper extremities to kill, not damage seats.
Quote on
6.) No other people wounded in the limousine.
Quote off
Which shows the shooters were professionals, not an amateur like LHO.
Quote on
7.) No whole bullets found in the limousine.
Quote off
That we know of, but if not, that is not unusual. Full metal jacketed bullets are designed to pass through a victim so this is what happened most likely. Furthermore, since the limousine was illegally taken from the area with the jurisdiction by the SS we have NO way of knowing what was actually found in the limousine.
Quote on
I highly recommend that every person interested in the SBT (and the Kennedy assassination in general) take a good, long look at the Discovery Channel's re-creation of the SBT performed in Australia in October 2004. That re-creation very nearly duplicated the SBT/CE399 path through TWO bodies (mock-ups of the victims), and came fairly close to duplicating the way bullet CE399 ended up looking on 11/22/63. Not a perfect match, true. But the shooting can NEVER be duplicated with 100%accuracy...and it is completely unreasonable to think it ever could be (especially given the bodily damage within two human victims that NEEDS to be done to perfection to make an exacting duplication come to fruition; which is just not feasible).
Quote off
Typical LNer comment. Instead of requesting that interested parties go to the twenty-six volumes to read the actual evidence he sends them to a doctored up recreation. Why are LNers afraid of the evidence? Because it doesn't support a single claim that the WC made regarding the crimes that they accused LHO of.
Quote on
But within a normal and reasonable percentage of "plus or minus of probability", that 2004 test PROVES BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT that the Single-Bullet Theory is (and was) a shooting event that could most certainly have occurred from a 60-foot-high perch.
Quote off
Plus or minus of probability? LHO had one chance and he had a crappy rifle with a loose scope and he got two hits in 6 seconds, and these guys with much better equipment, a controlled environment, do overs, and who knows what other advantages can only produce a success with an appropriate plus probability? How does this prove your case? It proves to me how ridiculous the SBT, and the shooting scenario in general, are.
The actual evidence sinks the SBT and that is why he is avoiding it.
Quote on
If conspiracists cannot see that....then that provides proof beyond a reasonable doubt, in my view, that such CTers just refuse to be convinced of the SBT's possibility no matter what is demonstrated to them.
Quote off
Possibility? This is NOT what the WC said, they said it was DEFINITELY achieved by a lone nut. Your test (which could not match LHO's feat as no test has) just shows how false their claim was.
This is a perfect example of the way in which LNers work. They avoid the actual evidence and instead rely on “common sense", probabilities in regard to rigged tests and blame the CTers for why they can't cite supporting evidence.
Quote on
And I also find it very revealing that it seems that no conspiracy promoters have a desire to try to "re-create" the SBT with tests of their own (sponsored by, say, Robert J. Groden, or Oliver Stone, or James Fetzer, or Mark Lane, et al), in order to "prove" once and for all that the SBT is an "impossible" shooting feat.
Quote off
Because pure common sense says it is not possible. In the one in a trillion chance it could be done, the bullet would NOT come out virtually intact. So you have nothing needing a full test to disprove. In fact, all the test the pro-WC people have done keep reinforcing how unattainable the SBT really is.
Quote on
"It's even MORE interesting to note that all of the SBT "tests" and "re-creations" that have been done (e.g., the 2004 Australian test I just mentioned, plus the FAA computer simulation test done in the 1980s, and the more-recent computer-model animations done by Dale K. Myers) show just exactly the opposite of what CTers seem to believe --i.e., all of those tests show that the Single-Bullet Theory is a definite possibility.
Quote off
Definite POSSIBILITY? This doesn't cut it, it has to be shown it is DEFINITELY ACHIEVABLE in all the tests they do. In other words, if they run 20 tests it should be achievable in 20 tests, with maybe a 1-2 variance, to make it a legitimate test. IF LHO did it, it has to be definitely doable, not just possible. Do computer animations have wind? I guess it can factor in the effects of wind, but is it the same? Doubt it.
Quote on
And, when factoring in all the variables of the shooting -- such as: no whole bullets found in JFK's body (or in the back seats of the limousine), the alignment of the victims in the car, and the official autopsy report which says that one bullet travelled straight through JFK and exited his neck -- the SBT then comes much closer to an absolute CERTAINTY, rather than just a mere 'Theory'.
Quote off
But as I outlined above, these are all faulty premises on your part. Sure if you ignore what really happened than the SBT is a possibility, but that is true of any event if you ignore the real factors involved.
Also, with the limousine illegally seized we have no way of knowing exactly what was found, thus, anything can be claimed regarding it.