Post by Rob Caprio on Aug 28, 2023 21:06:23 GMT -5
All portions are ©️ Robert Caprio 2006-2025
N.M. McDonald:
i.pinimg.com/474x/db/24/d3/db24d3f9f284961340ef7cc4fcb38b21--mcdonald-kennedy-assassination.jpg
CE 143:
3.bp.blogspot.com/-FK8JG3agpdY/UPXpt2Vi4sI/AAAAAAAAFzE/qFNOKBKAYDk/s1600/Photo_hsca_ex_290.jpg
Texas Theater:
live.staticflickr.com/1164/1332592328_0d68669456.jpg
The Warren Commission (WC) said that Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) shot and killed both President John F. Kennedy (JFK) and Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit (JDT) on November 22, 1963. LHO would be arrested for the murder of JDT around 1:51 p.m. at the Texas Theater (TT) by Dallas Police. We have looked at this issue from many angles already, but let’s zoom in for a closer look at one individual who participated in this apprehension of LHO.
**************************************************
Dallas Police officer N.M. McDonald would be involved in the arrest of LHO and would make some claims regarding what happened at the time of the arrest. One of the first interesting things he says is about the incident at the library on Marsalis Street.
Mr. BALL - And did you get a call over your radio to go to a certain place?
Mr. McDONALD - Well, there was a report from the dispatcher that a suspect was seen running into the public library at Marsalis and Jefferson.
Mr. BALL - You went down there?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir. I went directly to Denver Street, which is an alley at that point. It is still designated as Denver Street. I parked the squad car, took my shotgun, and went to the west basement entrance to the public library, and ordered the people in the basement, in the library outside. They came out with their hands up.
The boy immediately said that he had just run into the library to tell the people that the President had been shot. He was a much younger person than what was broadcast on description on the radio.
How much younger was he? Why was McDonald not asked this basic question. This is important as McDonald said this next.
Mr. BALL - You had heard a broadcast?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Of a description, of someone to look for?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What did you hear?
Mr. McDONALD - White male, approximately 27 years old, 5 foot 10, weight about 145 pounds, wearing light clothing.
Where did he get this from? The broadcasted description from the scene of the crime was as follows.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what the description was?
Mr. POE. White male, about 25, about 5 feet 8, brown hair, medium, and I believe she said had on a white jacket at the time.
And the description that went out at around 12:45 p.m. was the following.
Mr. BELIN. What did you say then?
Mr. SAWYER. "The wanted person in this is a slender white male about 30, 5 feet 10, 165, carrying what looks to be a 30-30 or some type of Winchester."
Compared to the initial description, wouldn’t LHO look too young since he had just turned 24? Since they said the shooter of JDT was 25, how young was this “boy” at the library since he did NOT look this old to McDonald? We would never know if McDonald did not tell us later on since the WC never bothered to ask him. Remember, Virginia Davis (a witness to the JDT shooting) said she saw a boy as well.
Mrs. DAVIS. The boy that shot Tippit.
Mr. BELIN. You mean the man--did you see him shoot Tippit? Or you mean the man you saw with the gun?
McDonald then says another weird thing.
Mr. BALL - The first description that you heard of a man to look for was on the way downtown to the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What was that description?
Mr. McDONALD - White male, approximately 27, 29 years old, and he had a white shirt on, weighed about 160 pounds.
Mr. BALL - And that was about 12:40 you got that?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.
12:40? I thought the first broadcasted description went out around 12:45 p.m.? And I thought that description lacked any CLOTHING aspect to it? How did he get one before everyone else did? We see what he means by “boy” here too in this part of his testimony.
Mr. BALL - After that. Did you receive a report?
Mr. McDONALD - After I was satisfied that this teenager that had run into the library didn't fit the description, I went back to my squad car, put my shotgun back in the rack. Just as I got into the squad car, it was reported that a suspect was seen running into the Texas Theatre, 231 West Jefferson.
So I reported to that location Code 3. This is approximately seven blocks from the library, seven blocks west.
So this boy was a teenager. The two most prominent teenagers in this case were Wesley Frazier and Milton Jones. Since the bus route driven by McWatters went by the library we could possibly think Jones more than Frazier here.
Big things can be found in small things and we have one here as McDonald says this about what he did when he arrived at the TT.
Mr. BALL - What did you do?
Mr. McDONALD - Well, when I got to the front of the theater there was several police cars already at the scene, and I surmised that officers were already inside the theater.
So I decided to go to the rear, in the alley, and seal off the rear. I parked my squad car. I noticed there were three or four other officers standing outside with shotguns guarding the rear exits. There were three other officers at the rear door. I joined them. We walked into the rear exit door over the alley.
Mr. BALL - What were their names?
Mr. McDONALD - Officer Hawkins, T. A. Hutson, and C. T. Walker.
He says he noticed three or four other officers standing outside the rear exits when he got there. He tells us their names. Here is what Officer Ray Hawkins says about this.
Mr. BALL. Where did you park?
Mr. HAWKINS. I parked my squad car in the alley at the rear of the theatre.
Mr. BALL. Then, what did you do?
Mr. HAWKINS. Officer--I believe Officer McDonald was at the back door at the time…
Hawkins says McDonald was ALREADY there when he got there. This may be important; it may not be as the other two are not real clear on who was there when they got there to see which one was right. McDonald will say LHO pulled a revolver on him and pointed it at him.
Mr. BALL - Had you felt any movement of the hammer?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir. When this hand--we went down into the seats.
Mr. BALL - When your left hand went into the seats, what happened?
Mr. McDONALD - It felt like something had grazed across my hand. I felt movement there. And that was the only movement I felt. And I heard a snap. I didn't know what it was at the time.
Mr. BALL - Was the pistol out of his waist at that time?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Do you know any way it was pointed?
Mr. McDONALD - Well, I believe the muzzle was toward me, because the sensation came across this way. To make a movement like that, it would have to be the cylinder or the hammer.
Again we have a discrepancy though as this is what Officer Hutson testified to seeing.
Mr. BELIN. Okay.
Mr. HUTSON. And the gun was waving around towards the back of the seat, up and down, and I heard a snapping sound at one time.
Mr. BELIN. What kind of snapping sound was it?
Mr. HUTSON. Sounded like the snap of a pistol, to me, when a pistol snaps.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know which way the pistol was pointing when you heard the snap?
Mr. HUTSON. Was pointing toward the back of the seat.
Mr. BELIN. It was pointing toward the back of the seat?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes; toward the screen in the front of the theater, in that direction.
Mr. BELIN. Toward the front of the theatre, or the back of the theatre?
Mr. HUTSON. Toward the front of the theatre, we will call, facing the screen.
Mr. BELIN. Was it aiming at anyone in particular?
Mr. HUTSON. No; not any officer in particular. The only one that could have came in the line of fire was Officer Ray Hawkins, who was walking up in the row of seats in front.
Why would McDonald say the revolver was aimed at him when it was not according to Hutson? Hutson would be corroborated by Walker on this point.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. WALKER. And it stayed there for a second or two. He didn't get it out. McDonald had come forward and was holding his hand. Ray Hawkins was behind me to my left at that time, and whether or not he came at the same time we did or not, but he was there, and there was a detective. Oswald had ahold of my shirt and he practically pulled off my nameplate by ripping it with his hand. and I was bent over, and I was in an awkward position, and I could see severall hands on the gun. The gun finally got out of his belt, and it was about waist high and pointed out at about a 45 degree angle. I turned around and I was holding Oswald trying to get his arm up behind him in a hammeriock, and I heard it click. I turned around and the gun was still pointing at approximately a 45 angle. Be pointed slightly toward the screen, what I call. Now Hawkins was in the general direction of the gun.
The gun according to two officers was NOT pointed at McDonald, but rather the screen and Officer Hawkins was the closest to being in trouble if it went off.
McDonald would also claim to take the gun from LHO, but again we have others saying something different.
Mr. BALL - What happened when you jerked the pistol free?
Mr. McDONALD - When I jerked it free, I was down in the seats with him, with my head, some reason or other, I don't know why, and when I brought the pistol out, it grazed me across the cheek here, and I put it all the way out to the aisle, holding it by the butt. I gave the pistol to Detective Bob Carroll at that point.
Countered by:
Mr. BALL. What was Officer McDonald doing at that time?
Mr. HAWKINS. I remember seeing him standing beside Oswald, and when I arrived where they were, both of them were down in the seat--Oswald and McDonald had both fallen down into the seat, and very shortly after I got there, a gun was pulled, came out of Oswald's belt and was pulled across to their right, or toward the south aisle of the theater.
Officer McDonald grabbed the pistol, and the best I can remember, Sergeant Hill, who had gotten there, said, "I've got the gun," and he took the gun and we handcuffed Oswald.
How can both of these accounts be accurate? They can’t be so someone is wrong here. Also, if Hill had the gun why did he say this in his testimony before the WC?
Mr. BELIN. And being that he had the keys to the car, Bob Carroll drove the vehicle.
Mr. HILL. As he started to get in the car, he handed me a pistol, which he identified as the one that had been taken from the suspect in the theater.
Mr. BELIN. When did he identify this to you?
Mr. HILL. I asked him was this his. He said, "No, it is the suspect's."
Why is it that nothing is consistent or easy in this case? McDonald claimed LHO tried to pull the trigger, but the revolver misfired. He would say it was evident on one of the bullets he took from the revolver.
Mr. BALL - And did you look at the ammunition in the revolver, the six rounds in the cylinder?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you notice anything unusual about any one of them?
Mr. McDONALD - I noticed on the primer of one of the shells it had an indentation on it, but not one that had been fired or anything--not that strong of an indentation.
Later on McDonald says one of these two bullets (labeled as Commission Exhibit (CE) 145) was the one he was referring to in regards to an indentation.
historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pages/WH_Vol16_0269b.jpg
Mr. BALL. And there are two cartridges that have been marked as Commission Exhibit 145 that the witness is also examining. Now, on one of the cartridges that have come from Commission's Exhibit 145, consisting of two cartridges, one of these you identify as a cartridge with a dent in it?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How can you tell this?
Mr. McDONALD. From the center of this-of the primer there-it is a small indentation, and some of the metal is blurred or not polished.
CE 145: www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0269b.htm
FBI expert Cortland Cunningham would not agree with the assessment of McDonald here as he said this in his WC testimony about this issue.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, for the record, I would like to state that to the best of my knowledge the group of two and the group of four bullets, which together total six, were taken by the Dallas Police from the chamber of the revolver which is Exhibit 143, after the apprehension of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. Cunningham, returning to Exhibit 145, do either of the two cartridges in Exhibit 145 bear any signs of having suffered an impact from the firing pin in the revolver, Exhibit 143?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. An examination of these two cartridges, the primers of these two cartridges, reveals no marks that could be associated with the firing pin in Commission Exhibit 143, or any other weapon.
Mr. EISENBERG. Are there any nicks on either of those cartridges?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. There is a small nick, an indentation, up near the edge of the primer in the Remington-Peters .38 Special cartridge.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could this nick have been caused by the firing pin?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. There was no indication, from an examination, that that nick had been so caused by a firing pin. First of all, it is in the wrong position, it is not in the center of the primer. And, also, a microscopic examination of that nick gave no indication that it was made by a firing pin.
Thus, the claim that LHO pulled the trigger on CE 143 and left a mark on a cartridge is false. There is again no evidence showing LHO ever had CE 143 on him, let alone that he tried to fire it in the theater. Cunningham would reiterate that the firing pin hit NONE of the cartridges in evidence.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Officer McDonald's statement that the primer of one round was dented on misfire: as far as you can tell, could this statement be confirmed?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; we found nothing to indicate that this weapon's firing pin had struck the primer of any of these cartridges.
Why would McDonald claim this if it did not happen? It was either confusion or an effort to make LHO sound more violent. The bottom line is the evidence we have shows LHO did NOT try to fire CE 143 and that it misfired. In fact, Cunningham said CE 143 worked just fine when he tested it.
Mr. EISENBERG. …Now, in light of your examination of this weapon, and your discussion, could you comment on this statement?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I personally have fired this weapon numerous times, as well as Special Agents Robert Frazier and Charles Killion. At no time did we ever attempt to fire this weapon that it misfired. It operated excellently and every time we have tried to fire it, it has fired.
It is very possible when he says that he reached across, and he grabbed it, that he locked the cylinder, which I think any trained police officer would do. You want to stop this cylinder from rotating. As soon as you do that, you have actually stepped the hammer falling on a live round, because if the hammer is allowed to go forward again, and it hasn't gotten into the cocked position, the rebound slide, as I was stating before, would block the firing pin from striking the primer of the cartridge.
So what put this mark there then if it was NOT the firing pin as Cunningham said? Furthermore, who put the mark there? Keep in mind, it was in custody of the Dallas Police Department (DPD) and possibly the FBI from the time these cartridges were allegedly taken off of LHO at the TT.
The last point we will touch on in this post are the bullets shown in CE 592.
CE 592: www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pages/WH_Vol17_0145b.jpg
Color version: whokilledjfk.net/tippit24.jpg
The WC would write this in their Report (WCR) about these cartridges.
Quote on
When Oswald was arrested six live cartridges were found in the revolver. Three were Western .38 Specials, loaded with copper-coated lead bullets, and three were Remington-Peters .38 Specials, loaded with lead bullets. Five additional live cartridges were found in Oswald's pocket, all of which were Western .38 Specials, loaded with copper-coated bullets.. The Western and Remington-Peters .38 Special cartridges are virtually identical--the copper coating on the Western bullets is not a full jacket, but only a gilding metal, put on principally for sales appeal." (WCR, p. 559)
www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0292a.htm
Quote off
I made what the WC defenders called a “mistake” years ago when I called the cartridges in this picture “steel” color as they chastised me and said they were copper cartridges. If you look at the color picture do these look like copper to you? That is the reason I said they were steel colored because that is what they look like to me. What happened to the “copper coat” the WC wrote about above?
Also, what is all the marring seen on the cartridges? Did LHO have a holster or some sort of carrying case like a bandolier? We saw this recently in another post.
Quote on
Mr. Weitzman described the rifle which was found as a 7.65 caliber Mauser bolt action rifle, which loads from a five shot clip which is locked on the underside of the receiver forward of the trigger guard.
The metal parts of this rifle were of a gun metal color, gray or blue, and the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn. The wooden portions of this rifle were dark brown in color and of rough wood, having been used or damaged to considerable extent. This rifle was equipped with a four power 18 scope of apparent Japanese manufacture. It was also equipped with a thick brown-black bandolier-type leather sling.
AFTER HE HAD OBSERVED THE RIFLE TO THE EXTENT DESCRIBED ABOVE, Capt. Fritz appeared and took the rifle from him."
(FBI reports of 11/23/63 and designated as HSCA files 180-101115-10327 and 180-10086-10049)
Quote off
Were these bullets kept in this bandolier or a holster like the type the DPD officers use? Just a thought. If you don’t agree then please explain how these cartridges got so marred and how the copper coat was stripped away on ALL the cartridges seen in CE 592.
N.M. McDonald:
i.pinimg.com/474x/db/24/d3/db24d3f9f284961340ef7cc4fcb38b21--mcdonald-kennedy-assassination.jpg
CE 143:
3.bp.blogspot.com/-FK8JG3agpdY/UPXpt2Vi4sI/AAAAAAAAFzE/qFNOKBKAYDk/s1600/Photo_hsca_ex_290.jpg
Texas Theater:
live.staticflickr.com/1164/1332592328_0d68669456.jpg
The Warren Commission (WC) said that Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) shot and killed both President John F. Kennedy (JFK) and Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit (JDT) on November 22, 1963. LHO would be arrested for the murder of JDT around 1:51 p.m. at the Texas Theater (TT) by Dallas Police. We have looked at this issue from many angles already, but let’s zoom in for a closer look at one individual who participated in this apprehension of LHO.
**************************************************
Dallas Police officer N.M. McDonald would be involved in the arrest of LHO and would make some claims regarding what happened at the time of the arrest. One of the first interesting things he says is about the incident at the library on Marsalis Street.
Mr. BALL - And did you get a call over your radio to go to a certain place?
Mr. McDONALD - Well, there was a report from the dispatcher that a suspect was seen running into the public library at Marsalis and Jefferson.
Mr. BALL - You went down there?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir. I went directly to Denver Street, which is an alley at that point. It is still designated as Denver Street. I parked the squad car, took my shotgun, and went to the west basement entrance to the public library, and ordered the people in the basement, in the library outside. They came out with their hands up.
The boy immediately said that he had just run into the library to tell the people that the President had been shot. He was a much younger person than what was broadcast on description on the radio.
How much younger was he? Why was McDonald not asked this basic question. This is important as McDonald said this next.
Mr. BALL - You had heard a broadcast?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Of a description, of someone to look for?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What did you hear?
Mr. McDONALD - White male, approximately 27 years old, 5 foot 10, weight about 145 pounds, wearing light clothing.
Where did he get this from? The broadcasted description from the scene of the crime was as follows.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what the description was?
Mr. POE. White male, about 25, about 5 feet 8, brown hair, medium, and I believe she said had on a white jacket at the time.
And the description that went out at around 12:45 p.m. was the following.
Mr. BELIN. What did you say then?
Mr. SAWYER. "The wanted person in this is a slender white male about 30, 5 feet 10, 165, carrying what looks to be a 30-30 or some type of Winchester."
Compared to the initial description, wouldn’t LHO look too young since he had just turned 24? Since they said the shooter of JDT was 25, how young was this “boy” at the library since he did NOT look this old to McDonald? We would never know if McDonald did not tell us later on since the WC never bothered to ask him. Remember, Virginia Davis (a witness to the JDT shooting) said she saw a boy as well.
Mrs. DAVIS. The boy that shot Tippit.
Mr. BELIN. You mean the man--did you see him shoot Tippit? Or you mean the man you saw with the gun?
McDonald then says another weird thing.
Mr. BALL - The first description that you heard of a man to look for was on the way downtown to the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What was that description?
Mr. McDONALD - White male, approximately 27, 29 years old, and he had a white shirt on, weighed about 160 pounds.
Mr. BALL - And that was about 12:40 you got that?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.
12:40? I thought the first broadcasted description went out around 12:45 p.m.? And I thought that description lacked any CLOTHING aspect to it? How did he get one before everyone else did? We see what he means by “boy” here too in this part of his testimony.
Mr. BALL - After that. Did you receive a report?
Mr. McDONALD - After I was satisfied that this teenager that had run into the library didn't fit the description, I went back to my squad car, put my shotgun back in the rack. Just as I got into the squad car, it was reported that a suspect was seen running into the Texas Theatre, 231 West Jefferson.
So I reported to that location Code 3. This is approximately seven blocks from the library, seven blocks west.
So this boy was a teenager. The two most prominent teenagers in this case were Wesley Frazier and Milton Jones. Since the bus route driven by McWatters went by the library we could possibly think Jones more than Frazier here.
Big things can be found in small things and we have one here as McDonald says this about what he did when he arrived at the TT.
Mr. BALL - What did you do?
Mr. McDONALD - Well, when I got to the front of the theater there was several police cars already at the scene, and I surmised that officers were already inside the theater.
So I decided to go to the rear, in the alley, and seal off the rear. I parked my squad car. I noticed there were three or four other officers standing outside with shotguns guarding the rear exits. There were three other officers at the rear door. I joined them. We walked into the rear exit door over the alley.
Mr. BALL - What were their names?
Mr. McDONALD - Officer Hawkins, T. A. Hutson, and C. T. Walker.
He says he noticed three or four other officers standing outside the rear exits when he got there. He tells us their names. Here is what Officer Ray Hawkins says about this.
Mr. BALL. Where did you park?
Mr. HAWKINS. I parked my squad car in the alley at the rear of the theatre.
Mr. BALL. Then, what did you do?
Mr. HAWKINS. Officer--I believe Officer McDonald was at the back door at the time…
Hawkins says McDonald was ALREADY there when he got there. This may be important; it may not be as the other two are not real clear on who was there when they got there to see which one was right. McDonald will say LHO pulled a revolver on him and pointed it at him.
Mr. BALL - Had you felt any movement of the hammer?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir. When this hand--we went down into the seats.
Mr. BALL - When your left hand went into the seats, what happened?
Mr. McDONALD - It felt like something had grazed across my hand. I felt movement there. And that was the only movement I felt. And I heard a snap. I didn't know what it was at the time.
Mr. BALL - Was the pistol out of his waist at that time?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Do you know any way it was pointed?
Mr. McDONALD - Well, I believe the muzzle was toward me, because the sensation came across this way. To make a movement like that, it would have to be the cylinder or the hammer.
Again we have a discrepancy though as this is what Officer Hutson testified to seeing.
Mr. BELIN. Okay.
Mr. HUTSON. And the gun was waving around towards the back of the seat, up and down, and I heard a snapping sound at one time.
Mr. BELIN. What kind of snapping sound was it?
Mr. HUTSON. Sounded like the snap of a pistol, to me, when a pistol snaps.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know which way the pistol was pointing when you heard the snap?
Mr. HUTSON. Was pointing toward the back of the seat.
Mr. BELIN. It was pointing toward the back of the seat?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes; toward the screen in the front of the theater, in that direction.
Mr. BELIN. Toward the front of the theatre, or the back of the theatre?
Mr. HUTSON. Toward the front of the theatre, we will call, facing the screen.
Mr. BELIN. Was it aiming at anyone in particular?
Mr. HUTSON. No; not any officer in particular. The only one that could have came in the line of fire was Officer Ray Hawkins, who was walking up in the row of seats in front.
Why would McDonald say the revolver was aimed at him when it was not according to Hutson? Hutson would be corroborated by Walker on this point.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. WALKER. And it stayed there for a second or two. He didn't get it out. McDonald had come forward and was holding his hand. Ray Hawkins was behind me to my left at that time, and whether or not he came at the same time we did or not, but he was there, and there was a detective. Oswald had ahold of my shirt and he practically pulled off my nameplate by ripping it with his hand. and I was bent over, and I was in an awkward position, and I could see severall hands on the gun. The gun finally got out of his belt, and it was about waist high and pointed out at about a 45 degree angle. I turned around and I was holding Oswald trying to get his arm up behind him in a hammeriock, and I heard it click. I turned around and the gun was still pointing at approximately a 45 angle. Be pointed slightly toward the screen, what I call. Now Hawkins was in the general direction of the gun.
The gun according to two officers was NOT pointed at McDonald, but rather the screen and Officer Hawkins was the closest to being in trouble if it went off.
McDonald would also claim to take the gun from LHO, but again we have others saying something different.
Mr. BALL - What happened when you jerked the pistol free?
Mr. McDONALD - When I jerked it free, I was down in the seats with him, with my head, some reason or other, I don't know why, and when I brought the pistol out, it grazed me across the cheek here, and I put it all the way out to the aisle, holding it by the butt. I gave the pistol to Detective Bob Carroll at that point.
Countered by:
Mr. BALL. What was Officer McDonald doing at that time?
Mr. HAWKINS. I remember seeing him standing beside Oswald, and when I arrived where they were, both of them were down in the seat--Oswald and McDonald had both fallen down into the seat, and very shortly after I got there, a gun was pulled, came out of Oswald's belt and was pulled across to their right, or toward the south aisle of the theater.
Officer McDonald grabbed the pistol, and the best I can remember, Sergeant Hill, who had gotten there, said, "I've got the gun," and he took the gun and we handcuffed Oswald.
How can both of these accounts be accurate? They can’t be so someone is wrong here. Also, if Hill had the gun why did he say this in his testimony before the WC?
Mr. BELIN. And being that he had the keys to the car, Bob Carroll drove the vehicle.
Mr. HILL. As he started to get in the car, he handed me a pistol, which he identified as the one that had been taken from the suspect in the theater.
Mr. BELIN. When did he identify this to you?
Mr. HILL. I asked him was this his. He said, "No, it is the suspect's."
Why is it that nothing is consistent or easy in this case? McDonald claimed LHO tried to pull the trigger, but the revolver misfired. He would say it was evident on one of the bullets he took from the revolver.
Mr. BALL - And did you look at the ammunition in the revolver, the six rounds in the cylinder?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you notice anything unusual about any one of them?
Mr. McDONALD - I noticed on the primer of one of the shells it had an indentation on it, but not one that had been fired or anything--not that strong of an indentation.
Later on McDonald says one of these two bullets (labeled as Commission Exhibit (CE) 145) was the one he was referring to in regards to an indentation.
historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pages/WH_Vol16_0269b.jpg
Mr. BALL. And there are two cartridges that have been marked as Commission Exhibit 145 that the witness is also examining. Now, on one of the cartridges that have come from Commission's Exhibit 145, consisting of two cartridges, one of these you identify as a cartridge with a dent in it?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How can you tell this?
Mr. McDONALD. From the center of this-of the primer there-it is a small indentation, and some of the metal is blurred or not polished.
CE 145: www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0269b.htm
FBI expert Cortland Cunningham would not agree with the assessment of McDonald here as he said this in his WC testimony about this issue.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, for the record, I would like to state that to the best of my knowledge the group of two and the group of four bullets, which together total six, were taken by the Dallas Police from the chamber of the revolver which is Exhibit 143, after the apprehension of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. Cunningham, returning to Exhibit 145, do either of the two cartridges in Exhibit 145 bear any signs of having suffered an impact from the firing pin in the revolver, Exhibit 143?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. An examination of these two cartridges, the primers of these two cartridges, reveals no marks that could be associated with the firing pin in Commission Exhibit 143, or any other weapon.
Mr. EISENBERG. Are there any nicks on either of those cartridges?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. There is a small nick, an indentation, up near the edge of the primer in the Remington-Peters .38 Special cartridge.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could this nick have been caused by the firing pin?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. There was no indication, from an examination, that that nick had been so caused by a firing pin. First of all, it is in the wrong position, it is not in the center of the primer. And, also, a microscopic examination of that nick gave no indication that it was made by a firing pin.
Thus, the claim that LHO pulled the trigger on CE 143 and left a mark on a cartridge is false. There is again no evidence showing LHO ever had CE 143 on him, let alone that he tried to fire it in the theater. Cunningham would reiterate that the firing pin hit NONE of the cartridges in evidence.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Officer McDonald's statement that the primer of one round was dented on misfire: as far as you can tell, could this statement be confirmed?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; we found nothing to indicate that this weapon's firing pin had struck the primer of any of these cartridges.
Why would McDonald claim this if it did not happen? It was either confusion or an effort to make LHO sound more violent. The bottom line is the evidence we have shows LHO did NOT try to fire CE 143 and that it misfired. In fact, Cunningham said CE 143 worked just fine when he tested it.
Mr. EISENBERG. …Now, in light of your examination of this weapon, and your discussion, could you comment on this statement?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I personally have fired this weapon numerous times, as well as Special Agents Robert Frazier and Charles Killion. At no time did we ever attempt to fire this weapon that it misfired. It operated excellently and every time we have tried to fire it, it has fired.
It is very possible when he says that he reached across, and he grabbed it, that he locked the cylinder, which I think any trained police officer would do. You want to stop this cylinder from rotating. As soon as you do that, you have actually stepped the hammer falling on a live round, because if the hammer is allowed to go forward again, and it hasn't gotten into the cocked position, the rebound slide, as I was stating before, would block the firing pin from striking the primer of the cartridge.
So what put this mark there then if it was NOT the firing pin as Cunningham said? Furthermore, who put the mark there? Keep in mind, it was in custody of the Dallas Police Department (DPD) and possibly the FBI from the time these cartridges were allegedly taken off of LHO at the TT.
The last point we will touch on in this post are the bullets shown in CE 592.
CE 592: www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pages/WH_Vol17_0145b.jpg
Color version: whokilledjfk.net/tippit24.jpg
The WC would write this in their Report (WCR) about these cartridges.
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When Oswald was arrested six live cartridges were found in the revolver. Three were Western .38 Specials, loaded with copper-coated lead bullets, and three were Remington-Peters .38 Specials, loaded with lead bullets. Five additional live cartridges were found in Oswald's pocket, all of which were Western .38 Specials, loaded with copper-coated bullets.. The Western and Remington-Peters .38 Special cartridges are virtually identical--the copper coating on the Western bullets is not a full jacket, but only a gilding metal, put on principally for sales appeal." (WCR, p. 559)
www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0292a.htm
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I made what the WC defenders called a “mistake” years ago when I called the cartridges in this picture “steel” color as they chastised me and said they were copper cartridges. If you look at the color picture do these look like copper to you? That is the reason I said they were steel colored because that is what they look like to me. What happened to the “copper coat” the WC wrote about above?
Also, what is all the marring seen on the cartridges? Did LHO have a holster or some sort of carrying case like a bandolier? We saw this recently in another post.
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Mr. Weitzman described the rifle which was found as a 7.65 caliber Mauser bolt action rifle, which loads from a five shot clip which is locked on the underside of the receiver forward of the trigger guard.
The metal parts of this rifle were of a gun metal color, gray or blue, and the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn. The wooden portions of this rifle were dark brown in color and of rough wood, having been used or damaged to considerable extent. This rifle was equipped with a four power 18 scope of apparent Japanese manufacture. It was also equipped with a thick brown-black bandolier-type leather sling.
AFTER HE HAD OBSERVED THE RIFLE TO THE EXTENT DESCRIBED ABOVE, Capt. Fritz appeared and took the rifle from him."
(FBI reports of 11/23/63 and designated as HSCA files 180-101115-10327 and 180-10086-10049)
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Were these bullets kept in this bandolier or a holster like the type the DPD officers use? Just a thought. If you don’t agree then please explain how these cartridges got so marred and how the copper coat was stripped away on ALL the cartridges seen in CE 592.