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Confusion? When Did LHO Order The Rifle?
by Raymond Gallagher 5/2011
Confusion? When did Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) order the rifle?
Confusion? On Friday night, the FBI contacted Harry Holmes and asked him to trace a money order for $21.95 that had been purchased on March 20, 1963. The FBI had been in contact with Klein's and had received the price and date from someone in Chicago. Since the information was not correct (LHO's money order was for $21.45, and he bought it on the
12th.) Holmes sent his secretary to "purchase about half a dozen books on outdoor type magazines such as Field and Stream, which I thought that I might locate the gun to identify it..." Vol.7, p. 294.
When the secretary returned, Holmes found, on page 98, of the of the November issue of Field and Stream, a Klein's ad featuring a number of rifles. One of the weapons was the MC, priced with a scope, at $19.95. There was an additional charge of $1.50 for shipping and handling. Holmes did some arithmetic and realized the true cost to be $21.45 not $21.95 as the FBI said.
With the new information, Holmes began to search post office records for a $21.45 money order. The true money order was found for a $21.45.
In the Field & Stream magazine Klein's offered a different version of the MC. LHO ordered a version which was 36 inches long and weighed 5.5 lbs. In the November American Rifleman, Klein's advertised a 40-inch rifle that weighed 7. lbs. The TSBD rifle was 40.2 inches long and with scope it weighed 8 lbs. It was the Field & Stream ad that was published in the WR. (Vol. 20, p. 174).
Louis Feldscott told the FBI that C 2766 was sold to Klein's on June 18, 1962, yet Waldman, at Klein's, did not order the rifles until January 24, 1963. Waldman testified that they received LHO's MO of $21.45 on March 13 and it was deposited, along with other MO's and checks, into company accounts at the First National Bank of Chicago. The postmark date of the order leaving Dallas was March 12th. (Vol. 7, p.366). He said that the deposit was made on the 13th. and it was for a total deposit of $13,827.98. But (pay close attention) the duplicate bank deposit slip provided to the customer by the bank, reads FEBRUARY 15, 1963, not March 13th. This is about one month before LHO sent the coupon for his rifle by air mail to Chicago.
Later, Waldman said that they couldn't be sure when the money order arrived or was deposited in the bank. See total Waldman testimony. (Bank deposit slip included in Waldman exhibits).
I can never prove it, but I believe that Klein's, like many other companies, was cooking their books for tax reasons and gave the FBI quick answers to get them away from the real books. This resulted in the confusion. They were under investigation, at the time for many reasons.
For me, this changes nothing. Lee ordered the rifle to kill General Edwin Walker. It came from Klein's. That rifle was seen in the photos in the Oswald's backyard.
3.bp.blogspot.com/_Lj5KP8OgZVk/R7oFLzQTRKI/AAAAAAAABN8/UwYKa77OO7w/s1600/CE-133-all.jpg
I don't believe that it was the same rifle used to kill JFK, despite the fact that it had the serial number of the rifle shipped to Lee in March. But that is a story for another day.
Note: According to Edward J. Epstein (LEGEND): "On March 25 the rifle arrived in Dallas. Oswald picked it up in the post office and brought it back to his office, where he showed it to Jack Bowen."
This was at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. Also, Bowen was known as Caesar Grossi.
For more on this topic, please see this post:
jfkconspiracyforum.freeforums.net/thread/1728/statements-sink-wcs-conclusions-488
When Did Oswald Order the Rifle?
PROBE Vol. 5, No.6, Sept-Oct. 1998
There have long been problems with how the rifle allegedly used in the assassination of President Kennedy came to be linked with Oswald. Raymond Gallagher shows us, astonishingly and with documentation, that the rifle was shipped before Oswald had ordered it. How could that be?
As John Armstrong has noted, Oswald was working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall on March 12th. According to postal records concerning the envelope and the money order, the letter had to have been mailed by Oswald between 8:00 and 10:30 am. that day. If we accept the postal records as genuine, then Oswald had to have left his work site that morning and walked 11 blocks to the General Post Office. While there he purchased a money order but did not mail it from that location. He walked many blocks out of his way to mail the envelope at a mailbox and then walked back to work. (This is indicated by the marking on the envelope which tells us where he dropped the letter. Armstrong, Harvey
and Lee, p. 450) And apparently, no one at work noticed this absence. In his book, Armstrong prints the company records for Oswald's employment that day. Those records list the jobs he was working on and how much time they consumed. As he concludes, "According to these records Oswald was at work continuously from 8:00 am thru 12:15
pm..." (Ibid.) If these records are genuine, how could he have taken the long walk he did?
Further, the FBI and Warren Commission state that the envelope arrived and was deposited by Klein's at the First National Bank of Chicago the following day, i.e. March 13th. (Probe Vol. 5 No. 6 p. 10)) David Belin did the questioning on this point (WC Vol. 7 p. 366) and he never blinked an eye at how an order could be shipped 700 miles, and then received and processed and deposited in one day. Before the advent of computers, no less. (I send letters within the county of Los Angeles that do not arrive the next day.) Once the envelope arrived at Klein's the company microfilmed the mailing envelope and the order coupon but not the money order for $21.45 (op. cit. Armstrong) It then gets even more interesting. As Raymond Gallagher wrote (Probe Vol 5 No. 6) "the bank deposit slip, the extra copy provided by the bank at time of transfer, reads February 15, 1963, not March 13th. This is about one month before Oswald sent the coupon ...Of course, if the February date is correct, then C2766 could not be the correct serial number on the rifle in the so-called backyard photographs."
The alleged money order deposited with the First National Bank of Chicago has none of the endorsements that the Vice-President of the bank, Robert Wilmouth, says it should have been stamped for the First National Bank of Chicago, the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, or the Federal Postal Money Order Center in Kansas City. This is evident by looking at the order itself. (WC Vol. 17, pgs. 677-678) Wilmouth never testified before the Warren Commission. Further, the FBI did not find Oswald's latent fingerprints on the money order. (Armstrong p. 449)
The alleged coupon used to order the rifle is just as dubious. In his 1998 Probe article, Gallagher noted a discrepancy that Meagher first pointed out back in 1967. And it's a doozy. The rifle found on the sixth floor was not the model that the Commission said Oswald ordered in March of 1963. The Commission states that Oswald used a coupon from the February issue of The American Rifleman to order his Carcano. (WR p. 119) A copy of this ad does not appear in the Warren Commission. Instead, a copy of the November 1963 Klein's ad appears at Vol. 20 p. 174. But this ad did not appear in The American Rifleman. It appeared in Field and Stream. If this ad appeared in November, what could it possibly have to do with the case against Oswald -- unless he ordered two rifles, which no one says he did? Further, the first ad is for a 36-inch Carcano rifle weighing 5.5 lbs. This is the one the Commission says Oswald ordered. The November ad is for a longer rifle of forty inches weighing seven lbs. The rifle in evidence by the Warren Commission is allegedly 40.2 inches long, and with the sling and sight weighs in at 8 lbs. In other words, by all accounts, the rifle the Warren Commission says is Oswald's is not the rifle that the Commission says he ordered.
The Warren Commission states that Oswald ordered the rifle on March 12, 1963, in Dallas. He sent a money order for $21.45 to Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago. He allegedly ordered the rifle through an ad from American Rifleman magazine and had the weapon sent via his alias of A. Hidell to his post office box. (WR p. 119)
Now here arises an important question which Vincent Bugliosi discounts: If you were planning on shooting the president, why would you do it with a rifle that you ordered through a mailed money order when you could buy a rifle over the counter with cash and leave no paper trail? This is a very sensible question.
nationalinterest.org/sites/default/files/main_images/1030px-Mannlicher-Carcano_Rifle_Owned_by_Lee_Harvey_Oswald.jpg
dygtyjqp7pi0m.cloudfront.net/i/32903/28294398_1.jpg
Confusion? When Did LHO Order The Rifle?
by Raymond Gallagher 5/2011
Confusion? When did Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) order the rifle?
Confusion? On Friday night, the FBI contacted Harry Holmes and asked him to trace a money order for $21.95 that had been purchased on March 20, 1963. The FBI had been in contact with Klein's and had received the price and date from someone in Chicago. Since the information was not correct (LHO's money order was for $21.45, and he bought it on the
12th.) Holmes sent his secretary to "purchase about half a dozen books on outdoor type magazines such as Field and Stream, which I thought that I might locate the gun to identify it..." Vol.7, p. 294.
When the secretary returned, Holmes found, on page 98, of the of the November issue of Field and Stream, a Klein's ad featuring a number of rifles. One of the weapons was the MC, priced with a scope, at $19.95. There was an additional charge of $1.50 for shipping and handling. Holmes did some arithmetic and realized the true cost to be $21.45 not $21.95 as the FBI said.
With the new information, Holmes began to search post office records for a $21.45 money order. The true money order was found for a $21.45.
In the Field & Stream magazine Klein's offered a different version of the MC. LHO ordered a version which was 36 inches long and weighed 5.5 lbs. In the November American Rifleman, Klein's advertised a 40-inch rifle that weighed 7. lbs. The TSBD rifle was 40.2 inches long and with scope it weighed 8 lbs. It was the Field & Stream ad that was published in the WR. (Vol. 20, p. 174).
Louis Feldscott told the FBI that C 2766 was sold to Klein's on June 18, 1962, yet Waldman, at Klein's, did not order the rifles until January 24, 1963. Waldman testified that they received LHO's MO of $21.45 on March 13 and it was deposited, along with other MO's and checks, into company accounts at the First National Bank of Chicago. The postmark date of the order leaving Dallas was March 12th. (Vol. 7, p.366). He said that the deposit was made on the 13th. and it was for a total deposit of $13,827.98. But (pay close attention) the duplicate bank deposit slip provided to the customer by the bank, reads FEBRUARY 15, 1963, not March 13th. This is about one month before LHO sent the coupon for his rifle by air mail to Chicago.
Later, Waldman said that they couldn't be sure when the money order arrived or was deposited in the bank. See total Waldman testimony. (Bank deposit slip included in Waldman exhibits).
I can never prove it, but I believe that Klein's, like many other companies, was cooking their books for tax reasons and gave the FBI quick answers to get them away from the real books. This resulted in the confusion. They were under investigation, at the time for many reasons.
For me, this changes nothing. Lee ordered the rifle to kill General Edwin Walker. It came from Klein's. That rifle was seen in the photos in the Oswald's backyard.
3.bp.blogspot.com/_Lj5KP8OgZVk/R7oFLzQTRKI/AAAAAAAABN8/UwYKa77OO7w/s1600/CE-133-all.jpg
I don't believe that it was the same rifle used to kill JFK, despite the fact that it had the serial number of the rifle shipped to Lee in March. But that is a story for another day.
Note: According to Edward J. Epstein (LEGEND): "On March 25 the rifle arrived in Dallas. Oswald picked it up in the post office and brought it back to his office, where he showed it to Jack Bowen."
This was at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. Also, Bowen was known as Caesar Grossi.
For more on this topic, please see this post:
jfkconspiracyforum.freeforums.net/thread/1728/statements-sink-wcs-conclusions-488
When Did Oswald Order the Rifle?
PROBE Vol. 5, No.6, Sept-Oct. 1998
There have long been problems with how the rifle allegedly used in the assassination of President Kennedy came to be linked with Oswald. Raymond Gallagher shows us, astonishingly and with documentation, that the rifle was shipped before Oswald had ordered it. How could that be?
As John Armstrong has noted, Oswald was working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall on March 12th. According to postal records concerning the envelope and the money order, the letter had to have been mailed by Oswald between 8:00 and 10:30 am. that day. If we accept the postal records as genuine, then Oswald had to have left his work site that morning and walked 11 blocks to the General Post Office. While there he purchased a money order but did not mail it from that location. He walked many blocks out of his way to mail the envelope at a mailbox and then walked back to work. (This is indicated by the marking on the envelope which tells us where he dropped the letter. Armstrong, Harvey
and Lee, p. 450) And apparently, no one at work noticed this absence. In his book, Armstrong prints the company records for Oswald's employment that day. Those records list the jobs he was working on and how much time they consumed. As he concludes, "According to these records Oswald was at work continuously from 8:00 am thru 12:15
pm..." (Ibid.) If these records are genuine, how could he have taken the long walk he did?
Further, the FBI and Warren Commission state that the envelope arrived and was deposited by Klein's at the First National Bank of Chicago the following day, i.e. March 13th. (Probe Vol. 5 No. 6 p. 10)) David Belin did the questioning on this point (WC Vol. 7 p. 366) and he never blinked an eye at how an order could be shipped 700 miles, and then received and processed and deposited in one day. Before the advent of computers, no less. (I send letters within the county of Los Angeles that do not arrive the next day.) Once the envelope arrived at Klein's the company microfilmed the mailing envelope and the order coupon but not the money order for $21.45 (op. cit. Armstrong) It then gets even more interesting. As Raymond Gallagher wrote (Probe Vol 5 No. 6) "the bank deposit slip, the extra copy provided by the bank at time of transfer, reads February 15, 1963, not March 13th. This is about one month before Oswald sent the coupon ...Of course, if the February date is correct, then C2766 could not be the correct serial number on the rifle in the so-called backyard photographs."
The alleged money order deposited with the First National Bank of Chicago has none of the endorsements that the Vice-President of the bank, Robert Wilmouth, says it should have been stamped for the First National Bank of Chicago, the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, or the Federal Postal Money Order Center in Kansas City. This is evident by looking at the order itself. (WC Vol. 17, pgs. 677-678) Wilmouth never testified before the Warren Commission. Further, the FBI did not find Oswald's latent fingerprints on the money order. (Armstrong p. 449)
The alleged coupon used to order the rifle is just as dubious. In his 1998 Probe article, Gallagher noted a discrepancy that Meagher first pointed out back in 1967. And it's a doozy. The rifle found on the sixth floor was not the model that the Commission said Oswald ordered in March of 1963. The Commission states that Oswald used a coupon from the February issue of The American Rifleman to order his Carcano. (WR p. 119) A copy of this ad does not appear in the Warren Commission. Instead, a copy of the November 1963 Klein's ad appears at Vol. 20 p. 174. But this ad did not appear in The American Rifleman. It appeared in Field and Stream. If this ad appeared in November, what could it possibly have to do with the case against Oswald -- unless he ordered two rifles, which no one says he did? Further, the first ad is for a 36-inch Carcano rifle weighing 5.5 lbs. This is the one the Commission says Oswald ordered. The November ad is for a longer rifle of forty inches weighing seven lbs. The rifle in evidence by the Warren Commission is allegedly 40.2 inches long, and with the sling and sight weighs in at 8 lbs. In other words, by all accounts, the rifle the Warren Commission says is Oswald's is not the rifle that the Commission says he ordered.
The Warren Commission states that Oswald ordered the rifle on March 12, 1963, in Dallas. He sent a money order for $21.45 to Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago. He allegedly ordered the rifle through an ad from American Rifleman magazine and had the weapon sent via his alias of A. Hidell to his post office box. (WR p. 119)
Now here arises an important question which Vincent Bugliosi discounts: If you were planning on shooting the president, why would you do it with a rifle that you ordered through a mailed money order when you could buy a rifle over the counter with cash and leave no paper trail? This is a very sensible question.