Post by Rob Caprio on Oct 28, 2024 20:30:04 GMT -5
All portions are ©️ Robert Caprio 2006-2025
i0.wp.com/www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/2013111813557_3311-1024x576.jpg
"Lee Harvey Oswald" in Mexico City:
history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pages/WH_Vol16_0331b.jpg
[Note: This was written about 10 years ago and was posted on "The JFK Assassination Forum" before I was banned permanently in 2018. The LNers hate the evidence, and they hate when it is used to sink their beloved Warren Commission.
It also surprises me how many CTers still think LHO went to Mexico City when Jim Garrison and the House Select Committee on Assassinations both said that he did not go but was rather impersonated there. Major CT researchers like Mark Lane, Jim Marrs, Jim DiEugenio, Sylvia Meagher, and Harold Weisberg have all said they don't think he went either.
I am not against him going, but IF we use the evidence provided to us then we have to be honest and say that he did not go. -- RC]
The Warren Commission (WC) made a lot of unsupported claims like Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) assassinated President John F. Kennedy (JFK) on November 22, 1963. They also ignored a good bit of evidence that would have called into question their claims.
We have looked at odd evidence in quite a few previous articles in this series already and this article will look at another one.
*********************************************************
A piece of odd evidence is the alleged baggage list for the supposed bus that LHO took to Mexico City. This was the only evidence produced for the claim that LHO took the bus to Mexico. In CE 2121 we see that the driver of the bus that LHO supposedly took said that he didn’t recognize him when showed photographs of him.
Quote on
On March 14, 1964, Roberto Morales, driver of Flecha Roja bus No. 516 on September 26-27, 1963, from Nuevo Laredo to Mexico, D.F., Mexico, furnished the following information.
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pages/WH_Vol24_0301b.gif
…He was shown the baggage list recording some of the names of passengers on that trip and stated he is not acquainted with any of the names and does not know any of the persons listed. He was unable to identify photographs of Oswald.. (CE 2121, p. 28)
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0301b.htm
Quote off
This shows us that the driver of bus No. 516 could not identify LHO as a passenger. The co-driver, Ernesto Hernandez, was also shown photographs of LHO and he too failed to identify him as a passenger. (CE 2121, p. 29)
The baggage list reflected only luggage that was checked and stored in the bus’s compartment. Based on other evidence this was not LHO. Here is the list.
CE 2482: www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pages/WC_Vol25_0355a.jpg
Who is “Lee H OswalJ”? I guess it is the same person who was “Lee H Oswalt”.
Quote on
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pages/WH_Vol24_0366b.gif
The name OSWALT in the list as previously reported has been changed to OSWALJ as the best possible interpretation of the hand printing. (CE 2129, p. 20)
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0366b.htm
Quote off
The problem with this is that a “T” and a “J” do not look like a “D”, so how did they get those options from what was written? We’ll come back to this list in a bit, but first let’s look at the issue of what “Oswald” allegedly brought onto the bus.
Pamela Mumford wasn’t on the bus that the WC claimed LHO was on. Keep in mind, even though she goes along with the WC in calling the young man on the bus “Oswald” that neither the driver nor co-driver identified LHO as actually being a passenger on the bus. The reason for this is Pamela Mumford said she was on the Transportes del Norte bus and NOT the Flecha Rojas bus #516 that the WC claimed LHO took.
Mr. BALL. Now, you said he had some luggage. Did you see the luggage?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How much luggage did he have?
Miss MUMFORD. Just one medium sized--I can't remember whether it was an overnight bag or one of these pouch affairs, you know.
Mr. BALL. Was it a zipper bag?
Miss MUMFORD. Well, I thought it was a zipper bag. I am not really certain on that point.
Mr. BALL. What color was it?
Miss MUMFORD. I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Did he have the bag with him in the seat, or near the seat where he was sitting?
Miss MUMFORD. Up on the railing, above him.
Pamela Mumford saw one bag on the bus with the man and this caused an issue for the WC so they revisited this issue a little later.
Mr. BALL. Now, again, on the luggage, did he have one or more pieces of luggage?
Miss MUMFORD. I think it was one.
Mr. BALL. Just one?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And that was a zipper type?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes
Mr. BALL. Are you able to tell me what color it was?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
How many times have we seen this tactic used by the WC in this series? This would not have been permitted if there had been a defense lawyer and a judge. Despite their efforts she stuck with just one bag, and that he kept it with him instead of checking it.
The problem that the WC had was that the last person to see LHO in New Orleans was his neighbor Eric Rogers and he saw him leave with TWO bags.
Mr. LIEBELER. So it is clear to you that Oswald did not leave with the ladies in the station wagon?
Mr. ROGERS. No; he didn't leave with them in the station wagon. It was the following evening he left on the bus with these two handbags.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was in the evening?
Mr. ROGERS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He ran across the street and got on the bus?
Mr. ROGERS. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. (handing picture to witness). I show you a picture of a bag that has been marked as "Commission Exhibit No. 126," and ask you if that looks like the bag.
Mr. ROGERS. That's it. That's it.
CE 126: www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pages/WH_Vol16_0259b.jpg
Rogers would say that he had two bags like CE 126. The WC would try to get him to identify the bag seen in Rogers Exhibit 1, but he wouldn’t.
Roger Exhibit 1: www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/pages/WH_Vol21_0169a.jpg
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you can tell, he did not have a bag similar to Rogers Exhibit No. 1?
Mr. ROGERS. No, no. It was kind of daylight. You could see. You know what I mean?
Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you sure that he didn't have one like Rogers Exhibit No. 1? Is it a different size?
Mr. ROGERS. It was—they both look like the same size, and they were well packed. They were well stuffed. I know they wasn't light. I don't know what he had in them.
This was more bad news for the WC as they were claiming that LHO checked Rogers Exhibit 1. Try as they might however they could not show that this happened. If we return to CE 2121, we see on page 118 a section entitled “Oswald’s Luggage.” On pages 118 and 119 you will see again and again no one would identify CE 126 or Rogers Exhibit 1 as the bag the American had.
Since no one could recognize Rogers Exhibit 1 you may be wondering where it came from. It was turned over to the Dallas Police Department (DPD) by the ever-helpful Ruth Paine several weeks after the assassination. It conveniently had Continental Trailways stickers and chalk marks indicating that it was checked on “9/26,” Ruth Paine constantly found evidence that the DPD missed during their searches on November 22 and 23, 1963.
Everyone who worked at the Hotel del Commercio did not see CE 126 or Rogers Exhibit 1 (the alleged checked bag) either. The owner and manager, Guillermo Garcia Luna, noticed the following regarding the luggage of the American.
Quote on
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pages/WH_Vol24_0308a.gif
He recalled that OSWALD had been carrying a medium-size, brown handbag, which he believed had a zipper and was of either Naugahyde or canvas material. (CE 2121, p. 54)
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0308a.htm
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The hotel maid, Natilda Garnica, also did not see CE 126 or Rogers Exhibit 1.
Quote on
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pages/WH_Vol24_0308a.gif
He had very few personal effects, which he carried in what she described as a “small, brown, zippered handbag”, which was of either canvas or imitation leather material. (CE 2121, p. 55)
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0308a.htm
Quote off
Despite no one seeing CE 126 or Rogers Exhibit 1 the WC wrote the following in their report.
Quote on
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/pages/WCReport_0378a.gif
The two pieces of luggage which Oswald took with him were a small, blue, zipper bag and a large, olive-colored bag , both made of cloth. He carried the smaller bag with him throughout the entire trip, but, at least from Nuevo Laredo to Mexico City, checked the larger one through to his destination. (WCR, p. 731)
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0378a.htm
Quote off
Once again the WC ignored the actual evidence to spin their preconceived yarn. As we have seen no one saw CE 126 or Rogers Exhibit 1 and yet they still claimed that LHO was carrying them. They further claimed that he checked Rogers Exhibit 1. How do you check a bag that you don’t have?
The WC rested their whole claim on a bag no one saw appearing on a bus list of checked baggage for proving that LHO was on the Flecha Roja No. 516, but to do this they had to again ignore evidence in their own twenty-six volumes.
The manager of the Flecha Roja terminal in Mexico City was Alejandro Saucedo and he told the FBI the following.
Quote on
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pages/WH_Vol24_0301b.gif
Saucedo affirmed that the number of passengers departing on the bus from Nuevo Laredo is not specified on the baggage list and that only the persons who check and become responsible for one or more articles of baggage are listed thereon. He pointed out that unaccompanied baggage may also be sent in this manner and the presence of a name on the baggage list does not insure [sic] that the person actually traveled on the bus. (CE 2121, p. 28)
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wcwcvolswh24htmlWH_Vol24_0301b.htm
Quote off
This shows all their efforts to show that LHO checked Rogers Exhibit 1 on the Flecha Roja No. 516 bus were for naught as even if that occurred as they claimed, and it didn’t, that didn’t prove that LHO was on that bus.
They had nothing else either. If you read through CE 2121 and CE 2129 you will see again and again people failing to identify LHO when shown photographs of him. As we have seen before in this series the bus manifest allegedly showing LHO is also suspect as it was admitted that it was written after the assassination.
Once again, we see evidence that creates doubt and/or shows that the WC’s claims were incorrect, therefore, their conclusion is sunk.
i0.wp.com/www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/2013111813557_3311-1024x576.jpg
"Lee Harvey Oswald" in Mexico City:
history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pages/WH_Vol16_0331b.jpg
[Note: This was written about 10 years ago and was posted on "The JFK Assassination Forum" before I was banned permanently in 2018. The LNers hate the evidence, and they hate when it is used to sink their beloved Warren Commission.
It also surprises me how many CTers still think LHO went to Mexico City when Jim Garrison and the House Select Committee on Assassinations both said that he did not go but was rather impersonated there. Major CT researchers like Mark Lane, Jim Marrs, Jim DiEugenio, Sylvia Meagher, and Harold Weisberg have all said they don't think he went either.
I am not against him going, but IF we use the evidence provided to us then we have to be honest and say that he did not go. -- RC]
The Warren Commission (WC) made a lot of unsupported claims like Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) assassinated President John F. Kennedy (JFK) on November 22, 1963. They also ignored a good bit of evidence that would have called into question their claims.
We have looked at odd evidence in quite a few previous articles in this series already and this article will look at another one.
*********************************************************
A piece of odd evidence is the alleged baggage list for the supposed bus that LHO took to Mexico City. This was the only evidence produced for the claim that LHO took the bus to Mexico. In CE 2121 we see that the driver of the bus that LHO supposedly took said that he didn’t recognize him when showed photographs of him.
Quote on
On March 14, 1964, Roberto Morales, driver of Flecha Roja bus No. 516 on September 26-27, 1963, from Nuevo Laredo to Mexico, D.F., Mexico, furnished the following information.
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pages/WH_Vol24_0301b.gif
…He was shown the baggage list recording some of the names of passengers on that trip and stated he is not acquainted with any of the names and does not know any of the persons listed. He was unable to identify photographs of Oswald.. (CE 2121, p. 28)
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0301b.htm
Quote off
This shows us that the driver of bus No. 516 could not identify LHO as a passenger. The co-driver, Ernesto Hernandez, was also shown photographs of LHO and he too failed to identify him as a passenger. (CE 2121, p. 29)
The baggage list reflected only luggage that was checked and stored in the bus’s compartment. Based on other evidence this was not LHO. Here is the list.
CE 2482: www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pages/WC_Vol25_0355a.jpg
Who is “Lee H OswalJ”? I guess it is the same person who was “Lee H Oswalt”.
Quote on
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pages/WH_Vol24_0366b.gif
The name OSWALT in the list as previously reported has been changed to OSWALJ as the best possible interpretation of the hand printing. (CE 2129, p. 20)
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0366b.htm
Quote off
The problem with this is that a “T” and a “J” do not look like a “D”, so how did they get those options from what was written? We’ll come back to this list in a bit, but first let’s look at the issue of what “Oswald” allegedly brought onto the bus.
Pamela Mumford wasn’t on the bus that the WC claimed LHO was on. Keep in mind, even though she goes along with the WC in calling the young man on the bus “Oswald” that neither the driver nor co-driver identified LHO as actually being a passenger on the bus. The reason for this is Pamela Mumford said she was on the Transportes del Norte bus and NOT the Flecha Rojas bus #516 that the WC claimed LHO took.
Mr. BALL. Now, you said he had some luggage. Did you see the luggage?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How much luggage did he have?
Miss MUMFORD. Just one medium sized--I can't remember whether it was an overnight bag or one of these pouch affairs, you know.
Mr. BALL. Was it a zipper bag?
Miss MUMFORD. Well, I thought it was a zipper bag. I am not really certain on that point.
Mr. BALL. What color was it?
Miss MUMFORD. I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Did he have the bag with him in the seat, or near the seat where he was sitting?
Miss MUMFORD. Up on the railing, above him.
Pamela Mumford saw one bag on the bus with the man and this caused an issue for the WC so they revisited this issue a little later.
Mr. BALL. Now, again, on the luggage, did he have one or more pieces of luggage?
Miss MUMFORD. I think it was one.
Mr. BALL. Just one?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And that was a zipper type?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes
Mr. BALL. Are you able to tell me what color it was?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
How many times have we seen this tactic used by the WC in this series? This would not have been permitted if there had been a defense lawyer and a judge. Despite their efforts she stuck with just one bag, and that he kept it with him instead of checking it.
The problem that the WC had was that the last person to see LHO in New Orleans was his neighbor Eric Rogers and he saw him leave with TWO bags.
Mr. LIEBELER. So it is clear to you that Oswald did not leave with the ladies in the station wagon?
Mr. ROGERS. No; he didn't leave with them in the station wagon. It was the following evening he left on the bus with these two handbags.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was in the evening?
Mr. ROGERS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He ran across the street and got on the bus?
Mr. ROGERS. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. (handing picture to witness). I show you a picture of a bag that has been marked as "Commission Exhibit No. 126," and ask you if that looks like the bag.
Mr. ROGERS. That's it. That's it.
CE 126: www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pages/WH_Vol16_0259b.jpg
Rogers would say that he had two bags like CE 126. The WC would try to get him to identify the bag seen in Rogers Exhibit 1, but he wouldn’t.
Roger Exhibit 1: www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/pages/WH_Vol21_0169a.jpg
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you can tell, he did not have a bag similar to Rogers Exhibit No. 1?
Mr. ROGERS. No, no. It was kind of daylight. You could see. You know what I mean?
Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you sure that he didn't have one like Rogers Exhibit No. 1? Is it a different size?
Mr. ROGERS. It was—they both look like the same size, and they were well packed. They were well stuffed. I know they wasn't light. I don't know what he had in them.
This was more bad news for the WC as they were claiming that LHO checked Rogers Exhibit 1. Try as they might however they could not show that this happened. If we return to CE 2121, we see on page 118 a section entitled “Oswald’s Luggage.” On pages 118 and 119 you will see again and again no one would identify CE 126 or Rogers Exhibit 1 as the bag the American had.
Since no one could recognize Rogers Exhibit 1 you may be wondering where it came from. It was turned over to the Dallas Police Department (DPD) by the ever-helpful Ruth Paine several weeks after the assassination. It conveniently had Continental Trailways stickers and chalk marks indicating that it was checked on “9/26,” Ruth Paine constantly found evidence that the DPD missed during their searches on November 22 and 23, 1963.
Everyone who worked at the Hotel del Commercio did not see CE 126 or Rogers Exhibit 1 (the alleged checked bag) either. The owner and manager, Guillermo Garcia Luna, noticed the following regarding the luggage of the American.
Quote on
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pages/WH_Vol24_0308a.gif
He recalled that OSWALD had been carrying a medium-size, brown handbag, which he believed had a zipper and was of either Naugahyde or canvas material. (CE 2121, p. 54)
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0308a.htm
Quote off
The hotel maid, Natilda Garnica, also did not see CE 126 or Rogers Exhibit 1.
Quote on
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pages/WH_Vol24_0308a.gif
He had very few personal effects, which he carried in what she described as a “small, brown, zippered handbag”, which was of either canvas or imitation leather material. (CE 2121, p. 55)
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0308a.htm
Quote off
Despite no one seeing CE 126 or Rogers Exhibit 1 the WC wrote the following in their report.
Quote on
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/pages/WCReport_0378a.gif
The two pieces of luggage which Oswald took with him were a small, blue, zipper bag and a large, olive-colored bag , both made of cloth. He carried the smaller bag with him throughout the entire trip, but, at least from Nuevo Laredo to Mexico City, checked the larger one through to his destination. (WCR, p. 731)
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0378a.htm
Quote off
Once again the WC ignored the actual evidence to spin their preconceived yarn. As we have seen no one saw CE 126 or Rogers Exhibit 1 and yet they still claimed that LHO was carrying them. They further claimed that he checked Rogers Exhibit 1. How do you check a bag that you don’t have?
The WC rested their whole claim on a bag no one saw appearing on a bus list of checked baggage for proving that LHO was on the Flecha Roja No. 516, but to do this they had to again ignore evidence in their own twenty-six volumes.
The manager of the Flecha Roja terminal in Mexico City was Alejandro Saucedo and he told the FBI the following.
Quote on
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pages/WH_Vol24_0301b.gif
Saucedo affirmed that the number of passengers departing on the bus from Nuevo Laredo is not specified on the baggage list and that only the persons who check and become responsible for one or more articles of baggage are listed thereon. He pointed out that unaccompanied baggage may also be sent in this manner and the presence of a name on the baggage list does not insure [sic] that the person actually traveled on the bus. (CE 2121, p. 28)
www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wcwcvolswh24htmlWH_Vol24_0301b.htm
Quote off
This shows all their efforts to show that LHO checked Rogers Exhibit 1 on the Flecha Roja No. 516 bus were for naught as even if that occurred as they claimed, and it didn’t, that didn’t prove that LHO was on that bus.
They had nothing else either. If you read through CE 2121 and CE 2129 you will see again and again people failing to identify LHO when shown photographs of him. As we have seen before in this series the bus manifest allegedly showing LHO is also suspect as it was admitted that it was written after the assassination.
Once again, we see evidence that creates doubt and/or shows that the WC’s claims were incorrect, therefore, their conclusion is sunk.