Post by Rob Caprio on Mar 3, 2019 21:32:59 GMT -5
All portions ©️Robert Caprio 2006-2024
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On February 19, 1969, Richard Carr was called as a witness by the prosecution in the Clay Shaw. A recent accident had left him unable to walk so he testified from a wheelchair.
At the time of the testimony Carr was living in Dallas, Texas. He was asked by recall the day of the assassination and what he was doing.
Q: Can you recall the day of November 22, 1963?
A: Yes.
Q: Can you recall what part of the City you were in around the middle of the day on November 22?
A: Yes, I was on the Seventh Floor of the New Courthouse Building that was under construction at that time, located on Houston and Commerce, facing Dealey Plaza.
Q: Approximately what time were you on the Seventh Floor of that building facing Dealey Plaza?
A: Sir, I can't recall the exact time, but it was at the time that the parade was coming down towards Dealey Plaza. I did not have a watch at the time.
Q: Were you in a position where you could see the parade?
A: Yes, sir.
This tells us that he was high up and had a good view of Dealey Plaza (DP) and the motorcade itself. From this vantage point he wouldn't be able to see things that people on the ground couldn't. He is asked if he saw anything unusual and here is what he had to say. Notice how testimony is given in a court of law and compare this to the nonexistent standards applied by the Warren Commission (WC).
Q: Do you recall seeing anything unusual happening?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Would you tell us what happened.
A: At the time the parade came down towards -- going to the School Book Depository, Dealey Plaza would have been to my left where I was standing, and at the Fifth Floor of the School Book Depository I noticed a man at the third window, this man was dressed – he had on a light hat, and I saw this man later going down Houston Street, to the corner of Commerce, and then turned toward town on Commerce, and at that time before this happened I heard a single shot which sounded like a small arms, maybe a pistol, and I immediately, immediately there was a slight pause and immediately after that I heard three rifle shots in succession, they seemed to be fired from an automatic rifle and they came --
MR. DYMOND: We object to the witness giving his conclusions on this.
THE COURT: Mr. Carr, do not give your conclusions on this point.
BY MR. GARRISON:
Q: Go ahead and tell us what you heard.
A: I heard three rifle shots fired from a high-powered rifle –
MR. DYMOND: We object to that unless the man is qualified as an expert. I ask the Jury be instructed to disregard that.
THE COURT: It is a question whether or not an ordinary human being, whether he would know a rifle shot or not. I do not know --
MR. DYMOND: We don't know this man had rifles since he was a child, we don't know that he ever had been a hunter, and this man --
MR. GARRISON: We can clarify that very easily.
Q: Mr. Carr, have you ever heard rifle fire before?
A: I have.
Q: Where?
A: I was a member of the Fifth Ranger Battalion in World War II. I qualified as an expert with a bolt-action rifle which is called a thirty aught six, in the Army it is a 30-caliber rifle, since that time I was -- I used a 225 Winchester, I hunted with a 70 millimeter Remington, I have also loaded my own ammunition, which I do until this day.
Q: Were you ever wounded in action?
A: Yes.
Q: How many times?
MR. DYMOND: I object to that as irrelevant.
THE COURT: That is irrelevant. Why don't you tender Mr. Carr over to the Defense as an expert, at least in the field that he knows a rifle shot when he hears it?
MR. GARRISON: One other question.
BY MR. GARRISON:
Q: Have you ever heard rifle fire in combat?
A: Yes, I have heard rifle fire in combat.
Q: On how many occasions?
A: I was in -- I landed in Casablanca, I went through North Africa, I was in two major offensives in Africa, and from there I went to Anzio beachhead and my battalion was annihilated, 13 men left in the Fifth Ranger Battalion.
Q: How many of these places did you hear rifle fire?
A: In all of them I heard rifle fire, sir.
MR. GARRISON: We tender the witness.
Notice how every point is challenged by the defense. Despite this series of challenges Jim Garrison was able to get Carr’s point into the record. Carr saw a man on the FIFTH floor. He heard a pistol being fired and he heard three rifle shots being fired so quickly that Carr thought an automatic rifle was being used.
The defense tried to say that Carr couldn't distinguish a rifle sound and what kind of rifle produced it. The prosecution said that he could and should be treated as an expert. The Court split the difference as it ruled that he could tell a rifle shot, but not what type of rifle fired it. And yet, the WC accepted statements from witnesses that didn't have anywhere near the combat experience of Carr.
We then get further details regarding the man he saw in the window.
Q: You can say what you said.
A: I thought he was a Secret Agent man or an FBI man.
Q: What did the man in the window look like?
A: He had on a hat, a felt hat, a light hat, he had on heavy-rimmed glasses, dark, the glasses were heavy-rimmed, and heavy ear pieces on his glasses.
Q: Go ahead.
A: He had on a tie, he had on a light shirt, a tan sport coat.
Carr is then asked the key question of where he thought the three successive shots originated from.
Q: Were you able to tell from where the three shots came from which followed?
A: Yes, I was.
Q: Where did they come from?
A: They came from the -- from where I was standing at the new courthouse, they came from in this direction here, behind this picket fence, and one knocked a bunch of grass up along in this area here (indicating), this area here is flat, looking at it from here, but the actual way it is, it is on a slope up this way and you could tell from the way it knocked it up that the bullet came from this direction (indicating).
Q: Now, when you just touched the ruler to this mockup, what was the area which you were describing as the source of the three shots, can you describe it a little more precisely?
A: Yes, there was a picket fence along in this area here, it does not show it in here, and it seems the shots came from this direction, and underneath that slope there were people.
Q: And what happened?
A: The shots came from this direction, from behind this picket fence that I do not see here, and there is a slope here, there is a grassy slope down here and there were a lot of people, spectators down here, below on this grassy slope, but when those shots were fired the motorcycle policemen, the Secret Service and what-have-you, all came in this direction, the way the shots came from, some of the people that were sitting there or standing fell to the ground as if the shots were coming off of those –
Carr is clearly saying that the three rifle shots that he heard after the pistol shot came from the picket fence area of DP – i.e. the Grassy Knoll (GK). In fact, unlike the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) Carr said that ALL three shots that he heard came from there. The HSCA admitted to only one shot.
It is interesting that Carr mentions Secret Service (SS) men converging on the GK after the assassination as there were NO SS agents on the ground so was he just incorrect or were these men involved in some way?
Back to the source of the shots.
BY MR. GARRISON:
Q: Now, of those shots, which of the three shots did you hear coming from that area you have just pointed out by the picket fence on the knoll?
A: The three shots, the last three shots came from this area.
Q: Did the three shots seem break apart in time or very close in time?
A: No, sir, they were fired from a semi-automatic or either --
MR. DYMOND: I object to this.
THE COURT: Just tell us the sequence, Mr. Carr.
BY MR. GARRISON:
Q: You can tell us whether they sounded close or separate.
A: Yes, they were very close together.
Q: If you were to say with your voice "BOOM" three times, could you give us the approximate separation as you recall it?
A: Well, BOOM-BOOM-BOOM, just in that order.
Q: Can you recognize the cement arcade in the area photograph?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, are you able to recall from which ends of the cement arcade the three shots came from, was it from the end towards the Depository or the end towards the overpass?
A: At the end towards the overpass, right here.
Now we have a fix. Carr heard the shots coming from the concrete structure near the Triple Underpass area. This exactly where many witnesses placed the shots.
We then move into what Carr saw after the assassination.
BY MR. GARRISON:
Q: Now, after the shots, did you notice any movement of any kind --
A: Yes, I did.
Q: -- as unusual, that was unusual?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Would you tell us what you observed.
A: Should I point it out, sir?
Q: Yes.
A: At this point right here, at this School Book Depository there was a Rambler Station Wagon there with a rack on the back, built on the top of this.
Q: Which way was the station wagon facing?
A: It was parked on the wrong side of the street, next to the School Book Depository heading north.
Q: North being the top of the photomap, north is the top as you have indicated?
A: North is the top, and it was headed in this direction towards the railroad tracks, and immediately after the shooting there was three men that emerged from behind the School Book Depository, there was a Latin, I can't say whether he was Spanish, Cuban, but he was real dark-complected, stepped out and opened the door, there was two men entered that station wagon, and the Latin drove it north on Houston. The car was in motion before the rear door was closed, and this one man got in the front, and then he slid in from the -- from the driver's side over, and the Latin got back and they proceeded north and it was moving before the rear door was closed, and the other man that I described to you being in this window which would have been one, two, the third window over here came across the street, he came down, coming towards the construction site on Houston Street, to Commerce, in a very big hurry, he came to Commerce Street and he turned toward town on Commerce Street and every once in a while he would look over his shoulder as if he was being followed.
Q: Now, Mr. Carr, did you have occasion to give this information to any law enforcement agencies?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Did anyone tell you not to say anything about this?
A: Yes.
This observation by Carr corroborates what Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig had seen. The man that he had seen in the fifth-floor window entered the Nash Rambler parked near the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) building. He would say that he was told to keep quiet about what he saw on November 22, 1963, by the FBI.
BY MR. GARRISON:
Q: As the result of the conversations with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, what did you do?
A: I done as I was instructed, I shut my mouth.
Q: Were you called to testify before the Warren Commission?
A: No, sir.
Why would the FBI tell him to be quiet about what he saw IF the official narrative was correct and supported with evidence? Why was the WC not interested in calling him as a witness? Probably because on cross-border he said that people went to the GK immediately after the shooting stopped.
Carr also saw the man from the fifth-floor window in the company of three other men and this wouldn't fit the official narrative. Carr adds a lot of credence to Roger Craig’s observation, and we owe Jim Garrison for calling him as a witness when the WC ignored him.
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Garrison_Jim.jpg
spartacus-educational.com/JFKcarr1.jpg
On February 19, 1969, Richard Carr was called as a witness by the prosecution in the Clay Shaw. A recent accident had left him unable to walk so he testified from a wheelchair.
At the time of the testimony Carr was living in Dallas, Texas. He was asked by recall the day of the assassination and what he was doing.
Q: Can you recall the day of November 22, 1963?
A: Yes.
Q: Can you recall what part of the City you were in around the middle of the day on November 22?
A: Yes, I was on the Seventh Floor of the New Courthouse Building that was under construction at that time, located on Houston and Commerce, facing Dealey Plaza.
Q: Approximately what time were you on the Seventh Floor of that building facing Dealey Plaza?
A: Sir, I can't recall the exact time, but it was at the time that the parade was coming down towards Dealey Plaza. I did not have a watch at the time.
Q: Were you in a position where you could see the parade?
A: Yes, sir.
This tells us that he was high up and had a good view of Dealey Plaza (DP) and the motorcade itself. From this vantage point he wouldn't be able to see things that people on the ground couldn't. He is asked if he saw anything unusual and here is what he had to say. Notice how testimony is given in a court of law and compare this to the nonexistent standards applied by the Warren Commission (WC).
Q: Do you recall seeing anything unusual happening?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Would you tell us what happened.
A: At the time the parade came down towards -- going to the School Book Depository, Dealey Plaza would have been to my left where I was standing, and at the Fifth Floor of the School Book Depository I noticed a man at the third window, this man was dressed – he had on a light hat, and I saw this man later going down Houston Street, to the corner of Commerce, and then turned toward town on Commerce, and at that time before this happened I heard a single shot which sounded like a small arms, maybe a pistol, and I immediately, immediately there was a slight pause and immediately after that I heard three rifle shots in succession, they seemed to be fired from an automatic rifle and they came --
MR. DYMOND: We object to the witness giving his conclusions on this.
THE COURT: Mr. Carr, do not give your conclusions on this point.
BY MR. GARRISON:
Q: Go ahead and tell us what you heard.
A: I heard three rifle shots fired from a high-powered rifle –
MR. DYMOND: We object to that unless the man is qualified as an expert. I ask the Jury be instructed to disregard that.
THE COURT: It is a question whether or not an ordinary human being, whether he would know a rifle shot or not. I do not know --
MR. DYMOND: We don't know this man had rifles since he was a child, we don't know that he ever had been a hunter, and this man --
MR. GARRISON: We can clarify that very easily.
Q: Mr. Carr, have you ever heard rifle fire before?
A: I have.
Q: Where?
A: I was a member of the Fifth Ranger Battalion in World War II. I qualified as an expert with a bolt-action rifle which is called a thirty aught six, in the Army it is a 30-caliber rifle, since that time I was -- I used a 225 Winchester, I hunted with a 70 millimeter Remington, I have also loaded my own ammunition, which I do until this day.
Q: Were you ever wounded in action?
A: Yes.
Q: How many times?
MR. DYMOND: I object to that as irrelevant.
THE COURT: That is irrelevant. Why don't you tender Mr. Carr over to the Defense as an expert, at least in the field that he knows a rifle shot when he hears it?
MR. GARRISON: One other question.
BY MR. GARRISON:
Q: Have you ever heard rifle fire in combat?
A: Yes, I have heard rifle fire in combat.
Q: On how many occasions?
A: I was in -- I landed in Casablanca, I went through North Africa, I was in two major offensives in Africa, and from there I went to Anzio beachhead and my battalion was annihilated, 13 men left in the Fifth Ranger Battalion.
Q: How many of these places did you hear rifle fire?
A: In all of them I heard rifle fire, sir.
MR. GARRISON: We tender the witness.
Notice how every point is challenged by the defense. Despite this series of challenges Jim Garrison was able to get Carr’s point into the record. Carr saw a man on the FIFTH floor. He heard a pistol being fired and he heard three rifle shots being fired so quickly that Carr thought an automatic rifle was being used.
The defense tried to say that Carr couldn't distinguish a rifle sound and what kind of rifle produced it. The prosecution said that he could and should be treated as an expert. The Court split the difference as it ruled that he could tell a rifle shot, but not what type of rifle fired it. And yet, the WC accepted statements from witnesses that didn't have anywhere near the combat experience of Carr.
We then get further details regarding the man he saw in the window.
Q: You can say what you said.
A: I thought he was a Secret Agent man or an FBI man.
Q: What did the man in the window look like?
A: He had on a hat, a felt hat, a light hat, he had on heavy-rimmed glasses, dark, the glasses were heavy-rimmed, and heavy ear pieces on his glasses.
Q: Go ahead.
A: He had on a tie, he had on a light shirt, a tan sport coat.
Carr is then asked the key question of where he thought the three successive shots originated from.
Q: Were you able to tell from where the three shots came from which followed?
A: Yes, I was.
Q: Where did they come from?
A: They came from the -- from where I was standing at the new courthouse, they came from in this direction here, behind this picket fence, and one knocked a bunch of grass up along in this area here (indicating), this area here is flat, looking at it from here, but the actual way it is, it is on a slope up this way and you could tell from the way it knocked it up that the bullet came from this direction (indicating).
Q: Now, when you just touched the ruler to this mockup, what was the area which you were describing as the source of the three shots, can you describe it a little more precisely?
A: Yes, there was a picket fence along in this area here, it does not show it in here, and it seems the shots came from this direction, and underneath that slope there were people.
Q: And what happened?
A: The shots came from this direction, from behind this picket fence that I do not see here, and there is a slope here, there is a grassy slope down here and there were a lot of people, spectators down here, below on this grassy slope, but when those shots were fired the motorcycle policemen, the Secret Service and what-have-you, all came in this direction, the way the shots came from, some of the people that were sitting there or standing fell to the ground as if the shots were coming off of those –
Carr is clearly saying that the three rifle shots that he heard after the pistol shot came from the picket fence area of DP – i.e. the Grassy Knoll (GK). In fact, unlike the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) Carr said that ALL three shots that he heard came from there. The HSCA admitted to only one shot.
It is interesting that Carr mentions Secret Service (SS) men converging on the GK after the assassination as there were NO SS agents on the ground so was he just incorrect or were these men involved in some way?
Back to the source of the shots.
BY MR. GARRISON:
Q: Now, of those shots, which of the three shots did you hear coming from that area you have just pointed out by the picket fence on the knoll?
A: The three shots, the last three shots came from this area.
Q: Did the three shots seem break apart in time or very close in time?
A: No, sir, they were fired from a semi-automatic or either --
MR. DYMOND: I object to this.
THE COURT: Just tell us the sequence, Mr. Carr.
BY MR. GARRISON:
Q: You can tell us whether they sounded close or separate.
A: Yes, they were very close together.
Q: If you were to say with your voice "BOOM" three times, could you give us the approximate separation as you recall it?
A: Well, BOOM-BOOM-BOOM, just in that order.
Q: Can you recognize the cement arcade in the area photograph?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, are you able to recall from which ends of the cement arcade the three shots came from, was it from the end towards the Depository or the end towards the overpass?
A: At the end towards the overpass, right here.
Now we have a fix. Carr heard the shots coming from the concrete structure near the Triple Underpass area. This exactly where many witnesses placed the shots.
We then move into what Carr saw after the assassination.
BY MR. GARRISON:
Q: Now, after the shots, did you notice any movement of any kind --
A: Yes, I did.
Q: -- as unusual, that was unusual?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Would you tell us what you observed.
A: Should I point it out, sir?
Q: Yes.
A: At this point right here, at this School Book Depository there was a Rambler Station Wagon there with a rack on the back, built on the top of this.
Q: Which way was the station wagon facing?
A: It was parked on the wrong side of the street, next to the School Book Depository heading north.
Q: North being the top of the photomap, north is the top as you have indicated?
A: North is the top, and it was headed in this direction towards the railroad tracks, and immediately after the shooting there was three men that emerged from behind the School Book Depository, there was a Latin, I can't say whether he was Spanish, Cuban, but he was real dark-complected, stepped out and opened the door, there was two men entered that station wagon, and the Latin drove it north on Houston. The car was in motion before the rear door was closed, and this one man got in the front, and then he slid in from the -- from the driver's side over, and the Latin got back and they proceeded north and it was moving before the rear door was closed, and the other man that I described to you being in this window which would have been one, two, the third window over here came across the street, he came down, coming towards the construction site on Houston Street, to Commerce, in a very big hurry, he came to Commerce Street and he turned toward town on Commerce Street and every once in a while he would look over his shoulder as if he was being followed.
Q: Now, Mr. Carr, did you have occasion to give this information to any law enforcement agencies?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Did anyone tell you not to say anything about this?
A: Yes.
This observation by Carr corroborates what Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig had seen. The man that he had seen in the fifth-floor window entered the Nash Rambler parked near the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) building. He would say that he was told to keep quiet about what he saw on November 22, 1963, by the FBI.
BY MR. GARRISON:
Q: As the result of the conversations with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, what did you do?
A: I done as I was instructed, I shut my mouth.
Q: Were you called to testify before the Warren Commission?
A: No, sir.
Why would the FBI tell him to be quiet about what he saw IF the official narrative was correct and supported with evidence? Why was the WC not interested in calling him as a witness? Probably because on cross-border he said that people went to the GK immediately after the shooting stopped.
Carr also saw the man from the fifth-floor window in the company of three other men and this wouldn't fit the official narrative. Carr adds a lot of credence to Roger Craig’s observation, and we owe Jim Garrison for calling him as a witness when the WC ignored him.