Post by Rob Caprio on Sept 29, 2019 20:11:16 GMT -5
All portions are ©️ Robert Caprio 2006-2024
i.pinimg.com/736x/a5/dd/b2/a5ddb2633b7d580f96d9793971469e5f.jpg
The Warren Commission (WC) said Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) shot and killed President John F. Kennedy (JFK) all by himself on November 22, 1963, but if that is true why did the FBI need to intimidate witnesses or change what they said? We have seen examples of them altering what was said by witnesses before in this series, but we have not looked into the intimidation issue.
This post will look at this issue.
******************************************
Ironically it would be the WC’s star witness, Marina Oswald, that would bring up the issue of intimidation by the FBI in her WC testimony. She would say the following about the issue.
Mr. RANKIN. After the assassination, did the police and FBI and the Secret Service ask you many questions?
Mrs. OSWALD. In the police station there was a routine regular questioning, as always happens. And then after I was with the agents of the Secret Service and the FBI, they asked me many questions, of course many questions. Sometimes the FBI agents asked me questions which had no bearing or relationship, and if I didn't want to answer they told me that if I wanted to live in this country, I would have to help in this matter, even though they were often irrelevant. That is the FBI.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who said that to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Heitman and Bogoslav, who was an interpreter for the FBI.
Here is the first mention of a threat allegedly said by the FBI as they told her if she wanted to “live in this country” she would help them in this matter. Of course this is vague and makes one wonder if they meant the matter they were inquiring about or with helping to make her husband, LHO, look guilty. I would lean to the latter myself. I don’t know if the FBI had this power anyway as we have seen the lengths the State Department went to in having Marina Oswald come to this country in the first place in this series already.
Mr. RANKIN. Did these various people from the police and the Secret Service and the FBI treat you courteously when they asked you about the matters that they did, concerning the assassination and things leading up to it?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have a very good opinion about the Secret Service, and the people in the police department treated me very well. But the FBI agents were somehow polite and gruff. Sometimes they would mask a gruff question in a polite form.
Why the SS was extremely nice to her is not known as they took her into protective custody when they had NO jurisdiction to do so. She would say someone came to talk with her from the Immigration Service (INS) as well.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you see anyone from the Immigration Service during this period of time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who that was?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the name. I think he is the chairman of that office. At least he was a representative of that office.
Mr. RANKIN. By "that office" you mean the one at Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was told that he had especially come from New York, it seems to me.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. That if I was not guilty of anything, if I had not committed any crime against this Government, then I had every right to live in this country. This was a type of introduction before the questioning by the FBI. He even said that it would be better for me if I were to help them.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he explain to you what he meant by being better for you?
Mrs. OSWALD. In the sense that I would have more rights in this country. I understood it that way.
Why would things be better if she “helped” them? Wasn’t the goal to find out the truth and NOT have Marina Oswald “help” the FBI with this matter? Why would she have more “rights” by “helping” them when he started off by saying if she wasn’t guilty of anything that she had every right to stay in the country? What extra rights would these be?
Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand that you were being threatened with deportation if you didn't answer these questions?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I did not understand it that way. You see, it was presented in such a delicate form, but there was a clear implication that it would be better if I were to help….This was only felt. It wasn't said in actual words.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you feel that it was a threat?
Mrs. OSWALD. This was not quite a threat--it was not a threat. But it was their great desire that I be in contact, in touch with the FBI. I sensed that.
Mr. RANKIN. But you did not consider it to be a threat to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Considering the way they made her feel how could this NOT be construed as a threat? Threats can be non-verbally implied or done in a verbal way. Certainly their constant reminders that things “would be better for her” if she “helped” them could be construed as a threat since one could surmise if she did not “help” them she would be given fewer rights or deported.
She finished this manner with this comment.
Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything else about your treatment by law enforcement officials during this period that you would like to tell the Commission about?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that the FBI agents knew that I was afraid that after everything that had happened I could not remain to live in this country, and they somewhat exploited that for their own purposes, in a very polite form, so that you could not say anything after that. They cannot be accused of anything. They approached it in a very clever, contrived way.
The sheer fact she mentioned this shows the FBI did intimidate her and scare her IMO as she was now a widow and had no means to support herself. This meant she was a charge of the state and under that status she could have been deported, but luckily for Marina Oswald a ton of money came her way from donations and a book deal she would never fulfill.
As we have seen before in this series there was a FBI agent that had harassed LHO during interviews and we saw this in Robert Oswald’s testimony.
Mr. JENNER. And you emphasize the word "attempt". Would you describe the circumstances and what occurred?
Mr. OSWALD. When the FBI agents arrived there I can identify one of them as a Mr. Brown…I do not know his initials--the other man I cannot remember his name. When the two agents and Mr. Gopadze came in, Marina immediately identified or recognized one of the agents who she had talked to before, and it is my understanding now, at the Paines' home in Irving, Texas.
Mr. JENNER. And did she have an aversion to being interviewed by the FBI agent on this occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. And she expressed that aversion?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. Was the reason given in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Yes--but through what source did you obtain it?
Mr. OSWALD. Through Mr. Gopadze, in the presence of Marina Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And what did he say as to her aversion?
Mr. OSWALD. That Marina had recognized this one FBI agent as a man who had come to the Paines' home in Irving, Texas, and perhaps at another location where they might have lived in Dallas, or the surrounding territory, and had questioned Lee on these occasions.
This sounds like it could have been FBI Agent James Hosty to me. What do you think?
Mr. JENNER. In the home?
Mr. OSWALD. In or outside of the home. I do not know whether it took place on the inside--but within the immediate grounds of the home, at least.
Mr. DULLES. And was this early in 1963? Prior, anyway, to November 1963, was it not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. And that this particular one agent--not the Mr. Brown I have referred to, but the other gentleman that I do not recall his name--she had an aversion to speaking to him because she was of the opinion that he had harassed Lee in his interviews, and my observation of this at this time, at this particular interview, was attempting to start--I would say this was certainly so. His manner was very harsh sir.
Mr. JENNER. Harsh towards Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, Mr, it most certainly was. And by the tone of conversation by Marina to Mr. Gopadze, who was interpreting----
Mr. JENNER. In your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. In my presence. And the tone of the reply between this gentle man and Mr. Gopadze, and back to Marina, it was quite evident there was a harshness there, and that Marina did not want to speak to the FBI at that time. And she was refusing to. And they were insisting, sir. And they implied in so many words, as I sat there--if I might state--with Secret Service Agent Gary Seals, of Mobile, Ala.--we were opening the first batch of mail that had come to Marina and Lee's attention, and we were perhaps just four or five feet away from where they were attempting this interview, and it came to my ears that they were implying that if she did not cooperate with the FBI agent there, that this would perhaps--I say, again, I am implying--in so many words, that they would perhaps deport her from the United States and back to Russia.
This is a clear statement from LHO’s brother Robert Oswald in terms of what he heard. He heard an implied threat that if Marina Oswald did not answer their questions they would deport her back to Russia. Under this kind of threat, whether only implied or verbally stated, how can we take anything seriously Marina Oswald may have said against LHO?
Another person who said he was intimidated and badgered by the FBI was LHO’s former Marine friend Nelson Delgado.
Mr. LIEBELER - The first report indicates that you said that Oswald was a poor shot and didn't do well, but it doesn't say anything about how you did. Do you remember discussing how you did with the FBI in the first interview that you had?
Mr. DELGADO - Yes, the first one was at home. We had more time to talk, and I was at ease there.
Mr. LIEBELER - Can you remember any closer than that?
Mr. DELGADO - No. I just knew it was the spring because that is the time everyone goes out to fire. It's either going to be warm or it's going to be very cold when they go out there; it's never in between. I could have said that, but that was the day I was upset, because this guy kept on badgering me.
Mr. LIEBELER - Which one of them kept badgering you?
Mr. DELGADO - The Spanish agent.
Mr. LIEBELER - What was he badgering you about?
Mr. DELGADO - He kept on sitting--he'd been talking, he'd been looking at me, doing this [indicating], you know, and he was sitting just about where this gentleman is now, and I'd been looking out of the corner of my eye, because I couldn't concentrate on what he was saying because he kept staring at me, and he was giving me a case of jitters, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have the impression that he didn't believe you?
Mr. DELGADO - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - You and this agent did not strike it off too well?
Mr. DELGADO - No, I am afraid not. We just spent hours arguing back and forth.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you teach anybody else Spanish while you were in the Marines?
Mr. DELGADO - Just one fellow, but he denied that I taught him any Spanish.
Mr. LIEBELER - Who was that?
Mr. DELGADO - Don Murray…
Mr. LIEBELER - What makes you say he denied that you taught him any Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO - That is what the agent interviewing me told me.
Mr. LIEBELER - The FBI agent told you that?
Mr. DELGADO - Yes.
We again see a FBI agent telling a witness what they are saying is wrong. How would the FBI agent know if this is wrong?
Orest Pena owned a bar in New Orleans and he told of harassment by FBI Agent Warren DeBrueys.
Mr. PENA - …Then De Brueys came to the organization. Maybe I don't know if sent by the Government or how, but he went to the organization.
Mr. LIEBELER - He joined it?
Mr. PENA - No; he didn't join it, but he was sticking with the organization very, very close.
Mr. LIEBELER - They knew he was an FBI agent?
Mr. PENA - Yes; we knew he was an FBI agent…So one way or the other, he was interfering with me somehow, Mr. De Brueys, so—
Mr. LIEBELER - De Brueys was interfering with you?
Mr. PENA - Yes. Somehow. So one day I went to the FBI. They called me to the FBI. I don't remember exactly for what they called me. So I told De Brueys'--I told De Brueys' or somebody else that I talked to-- De Brueys' boss--I didn't ask them who it was. They was FBI. They was in the FBI office I told the agency there I don't talk to De Brueys. I don't trust him as an American.
Mr. LIEBELER - You don't have any criticism of the FBI as far as the investigation of the Kennedy assassination was concerned except that you just don't like to talk to the FBI any more; is that right?
Mr. PENA - You mean after the assassination?
Mr. LIEBELER - Yes.
Mr. PENA - After the assassination, they came and asked me so many times about the same thing, lemonade, it just looked silly to me. The thing--I got in an argument with one of the men there, the same thing I told you about the printing and the propaganda. I told him how I feel about that. I don't know whether I was right or wrong. He told me that the United States is a big country and it was hard to find. I told him, "I don't agree with you." I told him that….I said, "Why can't you find that place?" He said, "Because the United States is a big country." I said, "It doesn't matter. Each printing has their own type or letter that can be found somehow."
Mr. LIEBELER - So you told this FBI agent that they should find where the propaganda literature had been printed?
Mr. PENA - The propaganda that Oswald was giving away. They put that on television about 4 or 5 days after the assassination--Oswald giving that propaganda. They knew that Oswald was giving that propaganda away before Mr. Kennedy was killed. They got all of that propaganda and all of that film taken of Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER - You think they should find where those leaflets were printed? This is what you told them?
Mr. PENA - …From my point of view as an investigator, if they went all the way from that propaganda, from where it was printed, maybe they can put Oswald in jail. Maybe the President not be killed. That was before Mr. Kennedy was killed.
This is an interesting comment by Mr. Pena and again shows the cavalier nature the FBI took in regards to anything involving LHO. Why did they not easily track down this literature and see where it lead? Also, since LHO was in jail in August 1963 for disturbing the peace, why did they send an agent to talk with him?
Perhaps the testimony of Wilbyrn W. Litchfield shows the tactics of the FBI better than any other.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather that you were more positive of the identity of Oswald as being the man in the Carousel on the occasion we have been speaking about at one time than you are now?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What has caused your opinion in the matter to weaken?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. The fact that they gave me the polygraphic test, that showed when they asked me--was it definitely him, it didn't show up right, and the fact that I had told Don when I called him, I said, "It sure as heck looks like him," and when the police were questioning me, they said, "Are you positive, are you positive, are you positive?"
I said, "It looks like him, it looks like him, it looks like him." And they come back, "Are you positive, are you positive?" And then the fact that when the Federal agents talked to me, they said, "You know, if you say you are positive and it wasn't him," it's a Federal charge, and I said, "Well, I'm not that positive."
Mr. HUBERT. The Federal agent told you if you gave an opinion----
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; they said, "If you give false information as to an exact statement--" not an opinion, but if I say I'm positive, that's a statement.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you conveying to me that you really were positive, but that----
Mr. LITCHFIELD. In my mind.
Mr. HUBERT. You were scared off of it?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; no, sir. I said in my mind I was positive that it looked like him, but I'm just as fallible as anybody else. I could be 100 percent wrong. I said, "In my mind, the man that I saw looked just like him," but then again, I can't say 100 percent.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is still your opinion?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I said it bears a close resemblance, but not having come in contact with Oswald at all or having never met him or anything, and just seeing him for a fleeting glance, the back of his head and when he walked by me; no, I can't be 100 percent pure positive.
This shows that his opinion was that the man he saw in the Carousel Club was LHO, so what else can you expect from a witness? And yet, the FBI scared him by saying “making a false statement” is a “federal charge”. This immediately made him say he was all of a sudden not so sure. Did the FBI say this to witnesses that were pointing towards LHO? I doubt it.
This is NOT the way you handle a witness during questioning. Heck, I would doubt Jack Ruby was told this when he taking a polygraph for the WC. The polygraph was given by FBI Expert Bell Herndon and if you do a search on the words “federal charge” you will find nothing. Ruby was facing murder charges and was NOT treated the way Litchfield was. Why is that?
We again see statements that call into question the final conclusions of the WC as the FBI was telling witnesses what they saw and heard and what they did NOT see and hear. That is never a good thing for a honest investigation.
With this in mind we have to say these statements sink the conclusions of the WC, thus, they are sunk.
i.pinimg.com/736x/a5/dd/b2/a5ddb2633b7d580f96d9793971469e5f.jpg
The Warren Commission (WC) said Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) shot and killed President John F. Kennedy (JFK) all by himself on November 22, 1963, but if that is true why did the FBI need to intimidate witnesses or change what they said? We have seen examples of them altering what was said by witnesses before in this series, but we have not looked into the intimidation issue.
This post will look at this issue.
******************************************
Ironically it would be the WC’s star witness, Marina Oswald, that would bring up the issue of intimidation by the FBI in her WC testimony. She would say the following about the issue.
Mr. RANKIN. After the assassination, did the police and FBI and the Secret Service ask you many questions?
Mrs. OSWALD. In the police station there was a routine regular questioning, as always happens. And then after I was with the agents of the Secret Service and the FBI, they asked me many questions, of course many questions. Sometimes the FBI agents asked me questions which had no bearing or relationship, and if I didn't want to answer they told me that if I wanted to live in this country, I would have to help in this matter, even though they were often irrelevant. That is the FBI.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who said that to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Heitman and Bogoslav, who was an interpreter for the FBI.
Here is the first mention of a threat allegedly said by the FBI as they told her if she wanted to “live in this country” she would help them in this matter. Of course this is vague and makes one wonder if they meant the matter they were inquiring about or with helping to make her husband, LHO, look guilty. I would lean to the latter myself. I don’t know if the FBI had this power anyway as we have seen the lengths the State Department went to in having Marina Oswald come to this country in the first place in this series already.
Mr. RANKIN. Did these various people from the police and the Secret Service and the FBI treat you courteously when they asked you about the matters that they did, concerning the assassination and things leading up to it?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have a very good opinion about the Secret Service, and the people in the police department treated me very well. But the FBI agents were somehow polite and gruff. Sometimes they would mask a gruff question in a polite form.
Why the SS was extremely nice to her is not known as they took her into protective custody when they had NO jurisdiction to do so. She would say someone came to talk with her from the Immigration Service (INS) as well.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you see anyone from the Immigration Service during this period of time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who that was?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the name. I think he is the chairman of that office. At least he was a representative of that office.
Mr. RANKIN. By "that office" you mean the one at Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was told that he had especially come from New York, it seems to me.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. That if I was not guilty of anything, if I had not committed any crime against this Government, then I had every right to live in this country. This was a type of introduction before the questioning by the FBI. He even said that it would be better for me if I were to help them.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he explain to you what he meant by being better for you?
Mrs. OSWALD. In the sense that I would have more rights in this country. I understood it that way.
Why would things be better if she “helped” them? Wasn’t the goal to find out the truth and NOT have Marina Oswald “help” the FBI with this matter? Why would she have more “rights” by “helping” them when he started off by saying if she wasn’t guilty of anything that she had every right to stay in the country? What extra rights would these be?
Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand that you were being threatened with deportation if you didn't answer these questions?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I did not understand it that way. You see, it was presented in such a delicate form, but there was a clear implication that it would be better if I were to help….This was only felt. It wasn't said in actual words.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you feel that it was a threat?
Mrs. OSWALD. This was not quite a threat--it was not a threat. But it was their great desire that I be in contact, in touch with the FBI. I sensed that.
Mr. RANKIN. But you did not consider it to be a threat to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Considering the way they made her feel how could this NOT be construed as a threat? Threats can be non-verbally implied or done in a verbal way. Certainly their constant reminders that things “would be better for her” if she “helped” them could be construed as a threat since one could surmise if she did not “help” them she would be given fewer rights or deported.
She finished this manner with this comment.
Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything else about your treatment by law enforcement officials during this period that you would like to tell the Commission about?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that the FBI agents knew that I was afraid that after everything that had happened I could not remain to live in this country, and they somewhat exploited that for their own purposes, in a very polite form, so that you could not say anything after that. They cannot be accused of anything. They approached it in a very clever, contrived way.
The sheer fact she mentioned this shows the FBI did intimidate her and scare her IMO as she was now a widow and had no means to support herself. This meant she was a charge of the state and under that status she could have been deported, but luckily for Marina Oswald a ton of money came her way from donations and a book deal she would never fulfill.
As we have seen before in this series there was a FBI agent that had harassed LHO during interviews and we saw this in Robert Oswald’s testimony.
Mr. JENNER. And you emphasize the word "attempt". Would you describe the circumstances and what occurred?
Mr. OSWALD. When the FBI agents arrived there I can identify one of them as a Mr. Brown…I do not know his initials--the other man I cannot remember his name. When the two agents and Mr. Gopadze came in, Marina immediately identified or recognized one of the agents who she had talked to before, and it is my understanding now, at the Paines' home in Irving, Texas.
Mr. JENNER. And did she have an aversion to being interviewed by the FBI agent on this occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. And she expressed that aversion?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. Was the reason given in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Yes--but through what source did you obtain it?
Mr. OSWALD. Through Mr. Gopadze, in the presence of Marina Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And what did he say as to her aversion?
Mr. OSWALD. That Marina had recognized this one FBI agent as a man who had come to the Paines' home in Irving, Texas, and perhaps at another location where they might have lived in Dallas, or the surrounding territory, and had questioned Lee on these occasions.
This sounds like it could have been FBI Agent James Hosty to me. What do you think?
Mr. JENNER. In the home?
Mr. OSWALD. In or outside of the home. I do not know whether it took place on the inside--but within the immediate grounds of the home, at least.
Mr. DULLES. And was this early in 1963? Prior, anyway, to November 1963, was it not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. And that this particular one agent--not the Mr. Brown I have referred to, but the other gentleman that I do not recall his name--she had an aversion to speaking to him because she was of the opinion that he had harassed Lee in his interviews, and my observation of this at this time, at this particular interview, was attempting to start--I would say this was certainly so. His manner was very harsh sir.
Mr. JENNER. Harsh towards Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, Mr, it most certainly was. And by the tone of conversation by Marina to Mr. Gopadze, who was interpreting----
Mr. JENNER. In your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. In my presence. And the tone of the reply between this gentle man and Mr. Gopadze, and back to Marina, it was quite evident there was a harshness there, and that Marina did not want to speak to the FBI at that time. And she was refusing to. And they were insisting, sir. And they implied in so many words, as I sat there--if I might state--with Secret Service Agent Gary Seals, of Mobile, Ala.--we were opening the first batch of mail that had come to Marina and Lee's attention, and we were perhaps just four or five feet away from where they were attempting this interview, and it came to my ears that they were implying that if she did not cooperate with the FBI agent there, that this would perhaps--I say, again, I am implying--in so many words, that they would perhaps deport her from the United States and back to Russia.
This is a clear statement from LHO’s brother Robert Oswald in terms of what he heard. He heard an implied threat that if Marina Oswald did not answer their questions they would deport her back to Russia. Under this kind of threat, whether only implied or verbally stated, how can we take anything seriously Marina Oswald may have said against LHO?
Another person who said he was intimidated and badgered by the FBI was LHO’s former Marine friend Nelson Delgado.
Mr. LIEBELER - The first report indicates that you said that Oswald was a poor shot and didn't do well, but it doesn't say anything about how you did. Do you remember discussing how you did with the FBI in the first interview that you had?
Mr. DELGADO - Yes, the first one was at home. We had more time to talk, and I was at ease there.
Mr. LIEBELER - Can you remember any closer than that?
Mr. DELGADO - No. I just knew it was the spring because that is the time everyone goes out to fire. It's either going to be warm or it's going to be very cold when they go out there; it's never in between. I could have said that, but that was the day I was upset, because this guy kept on badgering me.
Mr. LIEBELER - Which one of them kept badgering you?
Mr. DELGADO - The Spanish agent.
Mr. LIEBELER - What was he badgering you about?
Mr. DELGADO - He kept on sitting--he'd been talking, he'd been looking at me, doing this [indicating], you know, and he was sitting just about where this gentleman is now, and I'd been looking out of the corner of my eye, because I couldn't concentrate on what he was saying because he kept staring at me, and he was giving me a case of jitters, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have the impression that he didn't believe you?
Mr. DELGADO - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - You and this agent did not strike it off too well?
Mr. DELGADO - No, I am afraid not. We just spent hours arguing back and forth.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you teach anybody else Spanish while you were in the Marines?
Mr. DELGADO - Just one fellow, but he denied that I taught him any Spanish.
Mr. LIEBELER - Who was that?
Mr. DELGADO - Don Murray…
Mr. LIEBELER - What makes you say he denied that you taught him any Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO - That is what the agent interviewing me told me.
Mr. LIEBELER - The FBI agent told you that?
Mr. DELGADO - Yes.
We again see a FBI agent telling a witness what they are saying is wrong. How would the FBI agent know if this is wrong?
Orest Pena owned a bar in New Orleans and he told of harassment by FBI Agent Warren DeBrueys.
Mr. PENA - …Then De Brueys came to the organization. Maybe I don't know if sent by the Government or how, but he went to the organization.
Mr. LIEBELER - He joined it?
Mr. PENA - No; he didn't join it, but he was sticking with the organization very, very close.
Mr. LIEBELER - They knew he was an FBI agent?
Mr. PENA - Yes; we knew he was an FBI agent…So one way or the other, he was interfering with me somehow, Mr. De Brueys, so—
Mr. LIEBELER - De Brueys was interfering with you?
Mr. PENA - Yes. Somehow. So one day I went to the FBI. They called me to the FBI. I don't remember exactly for what they called me. So I told De Brueys'--I told De Brueys' or somebody else that I talked to-- De Brueys' boss--I didn't ask them who it was. They was FBI. They was in the FBI office I told the agency there I don't talk to De Brueys. I don't trust him as an American.
Mr. LIEBELER - You don't have any criticism of the FBI as far as the investigation of the Kennedy assassination was concerned except that you just don't like to talk to the FBI any more; is that right?
Mr. PENA - You mean after the assassination?
Mr. LIEBELER - Yes.
Mr. PENA - After the assassination, they came and asked me so many times about the same thing, lemonade, it just looked silly to me. The thing--I got in an argument with one of the men there, the same thing I told you about the printing and the propaganda. I told him how I feel about that. I don't know whether I was right or wrong. He told me that the United States is a big country and it was hard to find. I told him, "I don't agree with you." I told him that….I said, "Why can't you find that place?" He said, "Because the United States is a big country." I said, "It doesn't matter. Each printing has their own type or letter that can be found somehow."
Mr. LIEBELER - So you told this FBI agent that they should find where the propaganda literature had been printed?
Mr. PENA - The propaganda that Oswald was giving away. They put that on television about 4 or 5 days after the assassination--Oswald giving that propaganda. They knew that Oswald was giving that propaganda away before Mr. Kennedy was killed. They got all of that propaganda and all of that film taken of Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER - You think they should find where those leaflets were printed? This is what you told them?
Mr. PENA - …From my point of view as an investigator, if they went all the way from that propaganda, from where it was printed, maybe they can put Oswald in jail. Maybe the President not be killed. That was before Mr. Kennedy was killed.
This is an interesting comment by Mr. Pena and again shows the cavalier nature the FBI took in regards to anything involving LHO. Why did they not easily track down this literature and see where it lead? Also, since LHO was in jail in August 1963 for disturbing the peace, why did they send an agent to talk with him?
Perhaps the testimony of Wilbyrn W. Litchfield shows the tactics of the FBI better than any other.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather that you were more positive of the identity of Oswald as being the man in the Carousel on the occasion we have been speaking about at one time than you are now?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What has caused your opinion in the matter to weaken?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. The fact that they gave me the polygraphic test, that showed when they asked me--was it definitely him, it didn't show up right, and the fact that I had told Don when I called him, I said, "It sure as heck looks like him," and when the police were questioning me, they said, "Are you positive, are you positive, are you positive?"
I said, "It looks like him, it looks like him, it looks like him." And they come back, "Are you positive, are you positive?" And then the fact that when the Federal agents talked to me, they said, "You know, if you say you are positive and it wasn't him," it's a Federal charge, and I said, "Well, I'm not that positive."
Mr. HUBERT. The Federal agent told you if you gave an opinion----
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; they said, "If you give false information as to an exact statement--" not an opinion, but if I say I'm positive, that's a statement.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you conveying to me that you really were positive, but that----
Mr. LITCHFIELD. In my mind.
Mr. HUBERT. You were scared off of it?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; no, sir. I said in my mind I was positive that it looked like him, but I'm just as fallible as anybody else. I could be 100 percent wrong. I said, "In my mind, the man that I saw looked just like him," but then again, I can't say 100 percent.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is still your opinion?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I said it bears a close resemblance, but not having come in contact with Oswald at all or having never met him or anything, and just seeing him for a fleeting glance, the back of his head and when he walked by me; no, I can't be 100 percent pure positive.
This shows that his opinion was that the man he saw in the Carousel Club was LHO, so what else can you expect from a witness? And yet, the FBI scared him by saying “making a false statement” is a “federal charge”. This immediately made him say he was all of a sudden not so sure. Did the FBI say this to witnesses that were pointing towards LHO? I doubt it.
This is NOT the way you handle a witness during questioning. Heck, I would doubt Jack Ruby was told this when he taking a polygraph for the WC. The polygraph was given by FBI Expert Bell Herndon and if you do a search on the words “federal charge” you will find nothing. Ruby was facing murder charges and was NOT treated the way Litchfield was. Why is that?
We again see statements that call into question the final conclusions of the WC as the FBI was telling witnesses what they saw and heard and what they did NOT see and hear. That is never a good thing for a honest investigation.
With this in mind we have to say these statements sink the conclusions of the WC, thus, they are sunk.